Author Topic: Congestion Pricing  (Read 1754 times)

Offline toddg

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 09:06:40 PM »
One of my favorite topics!   If anybody is nostalgic for our earlier debates on congestion pricing, they can be found here and here.

Just to respond quickly to some of the objections raised today:

1. There will be no toll booths
2. In most of the proposals, there will be new tolls imposed at the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queensboro Bridges, plus all of the avenues just above 60th Street.
3. While the proposal is being called "congestion pricing" by New York politicians and the press, that's not really the proposal on the table.  Congestion tolls tend to be targeted at congested hours, and their purpose is the shift traveler behavior.  This proposal is really just a "cordon toll" aimed at raising revenue.
4. Yes, this is a "money grab" -- that's the point.  The purpose is to raise funds for repairs and upgrades to the transit system.  The alternatives are to allow the system to tailspin into further decline, or to raise everyone's taxes.  The idea of supplementing the existing tax subsidies with tolls paid by drivers entering the central business district is good public policy and socially equitable.
5. This is being proposed by the Governor and considered for approval by the state legislature.  The current Mayor has never really endorsed the idea, and in the past has strongly opposed it.
6. There was terrible traffic congestion in Manhattan (much worse than today, by some accounts) long before there were bike lanes.   Remember the years when "gridlock," real traffic paralysis, was a frequent occurrence on city streets?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 09:20:10 PM by toddg »

Offline jh35

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 09:37:56 PM »
One of my favorite topics!   If anybody is nostalgic for our earlier debates on congestion pricing, they can be found here and here.

6. There was terrible traffic congestion in Manhattan (much worse than today, by some accounts) long before there were bike lanes.   Remember the years when "gridlock," real traffic paralysis, was a frequent occurrence on city streets?

In the 50's and 60's the traffic WAS much worse than it is now. And, you could see the air. I will never forget the smog I saw the first time I got out of the subway on 14th street.

In the proposal you outlined, a car driving over the GW Bridge has to pay twice? once for the bridge and again passing 60th street?

I don't see how it is fair to the people living in Manhattan above 60th street, especially when you consider the discount that people in Staten Island get by driving around the tolls. (I assume they still do that.)


Offline toddg

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2019, 09:54:22 PM »
jh35 --

I haven't been following the news on this closely this week, but I think the Governor has only sketched out the broad outlines of a proposal, and is leaving it up to the legislature to negotiate the details.  The technology certainly exists to ensure that nobody is double-charged.  Some earlier proposals did include various types of rebates for vehicles crossing the cordon twice.   Some proposals (like London's) even cap the cost at one charge per day, so you can drive in and out of the zone multiple times without incurring additional expense.  All of these quirks create winners and losers, and have impacts on the amount of revenue that can be raised for public transit.  I guess this is why the Governor decided to let the legislature figure out what details would be politically viable.

Offline JK resident

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 11:43:52 AM »
Since all the repairs to the MTA cost four times what they should I see the congestion pricing as inevitable because Cuomo and Democratic control of Albany. They are talking about $13.50 to enter Manhattan. I guess only the very well off or businesses would pay. That would mean about $4,000 extra a year if you drive into Manhattan. Wouldn’t this also increase the value of housing near subway stops like JH? Also a parking garage that people drive to and park all day in Queens would seem to make sense.

Offline jh35

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2019, 12:16:08 PM »
Since all the repairs to the MTA cost four times what they should I see the congestion pricing as inevitable because Cuomo and Democratic control of Albany. They are talking about $13.50 to enter Manhattan. I guess only the very well off or businesses would pay. That would mean about $4,000 extra a year if you drive into Manhattan. Wouldn’t this also increase the value of housing near subway stops like JH? Also a parking garage that people drive to and park all day in Queens would seem to make sense.

Municipal parking structures are decades overdue.

Offline JK resident

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2019, 01:52:17 PM »
On the other hand given the high land cost and construction costs of building a parking garage, it would be very expensive and not very profitable. 100 cars at 350 a month would bring in only 420k which is little if you consider the space you would need to store 100 cars.

Offline deja

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2019, 05:20:44 PM »
Parking should be underground, sort of a value add to other above-ground structures.

Offline lmaniace

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2019, 07:23:58 PM »
  "Many causes of congestion are the existence of bike lanes that are unoccupied for what appears to be over 80% of the time and serve little more than to take away a lane of traffic from other motorized vehicles."
Congestion one NYC roads were around long before bike lanes occurred.
Also, we have bike lanes on 34th Avenue and they do not cause congestion on that street and that';s true for the vast majority of bike lanes, if not all. 
Bike lanes provide very cheap transportation to work for many immigrants who don't have the money for cars. I did a news story a few years back and about 75 percent of the people going over the Queensborough Bridge were immigrants. I spent a good time interviewing folks.
Congestion pricing restores the unfairness that occurs when the bridges least capable of landing lots of traffic are free, while the ones that are best able to have tolls.
The free bridges are usually located in poor or working class neighborhoods, meaning those folks suffer with air pollution and noise.
The Move NY plan has fixes for folks living in places lacking subway service - Verrazano, Throgs Neck, Whitestone, even Triborough bridges - the tolls would be lower. Also, it would help keep and create jobs in NYC by reducing congestion so deliveries and repair people would be able to get to their destinations sooner.
Oh, and it would provide a huge amount of money to upgrade transit. And it would help battle global warming. When it comes to the environment, subways are the Big Green Machine.
Cheers.


Offline ShinjukuBaby

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2019, 06:27:34 AM »
Bike lanes REDUCE congestion, in addition to reducing pollution.  Increased use of bikes reduces obesity, diabetes and other disorders.

Offline JK resident

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2019, 01:48:17 PM »
And most bike riders go around without a helmet leading to high numbers of brain injuries and deaths. Also how many people bike when it is cold or raining so it is not a replacement for cars and buses.

Offline ShinjukuBaby

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 11:44:14 AM »
"Most" do not ride without helmets.  (I always wear a helmet.)  The deaths are caused by cars, which are also responsible for huge numbers of pedestrian deaths.  For safety, we need more bike lanes, wider sidewalks and islands, less on street parking and better street design.

Offline jaxheightzforall

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 12:21:02 PM »
Shinjuku you wear a helmet but do you also run red lights on your bike?

Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 01:13:37 PM »
It's a generational thing.  Many older people who were brought up in the Robert Moses car-centric era resent bikes and bike lanes and alternate modes of transport.

But the future is for bikes and bike lanes and greener modes of transport.

That's a fact.

Offline jh35

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 01:49:40 PM »
It's a generational thing.  Many older people who were brought up in the Robert Moses car-centric era resent bikes and bike lanes and alternate modes of transport.

But the future is for bikes and bike lanes and greener modes of transport.

That's a fact.

You must be young. You think things and people change for the better.

I don't see plans for better transportation. I see plans to give a billionaire another billion dollars.

Offline jaxheightzforall

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Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 05:13:00 PM »
I am a millenial. Despite your ageist  remarks, what i am against is when bikers think they are infallible when in fact, i see them texting while riding/ breaking traffic rules and causing near accidents MORE OFTEN than vehicles. I am PRO alternate transportation resources, but very much against bikers who disregard the rules of the road (including red lights and stop signs).

Let's have all bicycles pay to register annually to the city to have their wheels on the road, that will raise more money. And let's get them more tickets when they run red lights and break rules, that's a great idea.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 05:21:53 PM by jaxheightzforall »

Jackson Heights Life

Re: Congestion Pricing
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 05:13:00 PM »