Author Topic: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism  (Read 539 times)

Offline am315

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 12:24:20 PM »
The real question with AOC -- and all the new uber-progressives -- is what will they be able to accomplish in their first term. AOC ran on such lofty but hardly achievable goals as Medicare for All. Never going to happen. So her challenge ultimately will be building a legislative record in which she shows she delivered for her constituents. Yesterday, for example, she participated in a protest in Pelosi's office on climate change. It got a lot of press coverage, which is fine but her job going forward isn't going to be activist it's to be a representative.

Offline jeanette

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2018, 12:35:30 PM »
Yes, am willing to. Nothing is for nothing.  Besides healthcare is already so expensive here I can't see it getting more than we already pay.  In countries where there's universal healthcare extra healthcare taxes are nowhere near as much as monthly American Health Care insurance costs.

This is the same mistake everybody makes, that healthcare in the US will somehow magically get more affordable and not even more expensive when adding literally everyone to the only game in town.

But then I am not clairvoyant like you, abc :)

Think about education, ever more costly and with not such great--in many cases, awful results.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 12:48:16 PM by jeanette »

Online lalochezia

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2018, 01:00:52 PM »
Yes, am willing to. Nothing is for nothing.  Besides healthcare is already so expensive here I can't see it getting more than we already pay.  In countries where there's universal healthcare extra healthcare taxes are nowhere near as much as monthly American Health Care insurance costs.

This is the same mistake everybody makes, that healthcare in the US will somehow magically get more affordable and not even more expensive when adding literally everyone to the only game in town.


But then I am not clairvoyant like you, abc :)

Think about education, ever more costly and with not such great--in many cases, awful results.

So people should just die and suffer and suck it up, amirite? I've got mine!

Healthcare is a human right. People actively denying it to people - in the richest country in the world - while putting their heads in the sand about thousands of other societal costs given from the poor to the rich - are enabling suffering and death.

Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2018, 01:31:41 PM »
Yes, am willing to. Nothing is for nothing.  Besides healthcare is already so expensive here I can't see it getting more than we already pay.  In countries where there's universal healthcare extra healthcare taxes are nowhere near as much as monthly American Health Care insurance costs.

This is the same mistake everybody makes, that healthcare in the US will somehow magically get more affordable and not even more expensive when adding literally everyone to the only game in town.

But then I am not clairvoyant like you, abc :)

Think about education, ever more costly and with not such great--in many cases, awful results.

I have lived in a country with universal health care.  What happens is the govt health branch sets the prices for what they are willing to reimburse for the health care service.  For doctors, pharmaceuticals, hospitals etc...and it is all published...and TRANSPARENT and if medical practitioners etc want more than what is paid THEY MUST TELL THE PATIENT.  And the patient can then have the choice to go to a service that is covered by the universal healthcare.

It's the TRANSPARENCY of the situation that lowers the costs of health care.

Here THERE IS NO TRANSPARENCY.  You are presented with a bill after the fact.  And then have to fight it.

A shocking system here.

In the USA, it's like going into a store to buy bread and the bread has no price sticker.  And only after you have eaten the bread does the store owner charge you.  WHATEVER HE WANTS!

An absurd situation exists here.

But that's why UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE is cheaper when it's the only game in town. 

It creates TRANSPARENCY with costs set by the govt.  And CLEAR before the emergency occurs!

So it is, alas, you making the mistake that Healthcare won't be cheaper when it's UNIVERSAL.

Because you haven't experienced and analyzed the system in a country where universal healthcare exists.

Universal healthcare regulates the health industry.  Otherwise those healthcare folks become bandits which they have in the USA! Operating (literally) by charging WHATEVER THEY WANT!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 01:42:30 PM by abcdefghijk »

Offline jeanette

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
abc, we have government run healthcare: Medicare and Medicaid and VA (hereinafter "MMV"). I have Medicare and have had Medicaid in the past.

None have the transparency you are declaiming. Except that the specialists know in advance how much less they will paid for providing services to those with MMV.

Offline jeanette

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 01:54:28 PM »
Lalo, healthcare in the US is free/subsidized for the poor, including the undocumented, veterans, prisoners, and the most vulnerable, the elderly.

Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 02:02:15 PM »
Without TRANSPARENCY of costs the health care system will always be broken.

Any system without TRANSPARENCY becomes corrupt.

And bad for the average American.

Universal Healthcare allows for the Govt Health Branch to have much greater bargaining power. And force TRANSPARENCY.

It's looking at the situation the opposite way.  Empowered as opposed to disempowered when it comes to health care costs.

Go live in a country with Universal Healthcare for a while and analyze how they have made it work.
Because they have. It is not re-inventing the wheel.  There are examples around the world where the situation works for THE AVERAGE CITIZEN.  Not only the poor or old or disabled.  Everyone!

Offline jeanette

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2018, 02:04:55 PM »
Without TRANSPARENCY of costs the health care system will always be broken.
Any system without TRANSPARENCY becomes corrupt.
Universal Healthcare allows for the Govt Health Branch to have much greater bargaining power. And force TRANSPARENCY.
It's looking at the situation the opposite way.  Empowered as opposed to disempowered when it comes to health care costs.

OK, no argument there, why aren't we arguing for transparency, then?

Offline FreyaG

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 03:10:21 PM »
The costs of universal healthcare are lower than the absurd US system, because you get rid of a big chunk of admin costs. There is ONE system not a gazillion ones.

Supposedly, US health care gives you choices. It does not. The government may not set your options, but your insurance does. I'd rather have my government do it.

Also I'm willing to do a lot to not have to deal with insurance. The waste of time and the mental stress is enormous. I'm saying this as someone who has only lived in NY and MA and has had great health insurance through my employer.


Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 05:30:30 PM »
Without TRANSPARENCY of costs the health care system will always be broken.
Any system without TRANSPARENCY becomes corrupt.
Universal Healthcare allows for the Govt Health Branch to have much greater bargaining power. And force TRANSPARENCY.
It's looking at the situation the opposite way.  Empowered as opposed to disempowered when it comes to health care costs.

OK, no argument there, why aren't we arguing for transparency, then?

This is the paradox of the USA.  The most capitalist of all countries.

Where everything has a price tag.  And almost everyone as well!

But Americans seem afraid to put a definite price tag on a health procedure and situation.

Whereas...bizarrely the more "socialist" countries are perfectly happy to list exactly what costs what when it comes to prices for health and medical things.

Here it is almost impossible to get an accurate quote before a procedure.

It is the blind spot of America.  America seems to consider health and medicine as some arcane magic that can't be priced properly beforehand.

I think Americans have been trained to believe that.

But the rest of the world hasn't been. The rest of world is far more pragmatic (And maybe less fearful and more accepting of death? This can be discussed!  ::)) when it comes to health.   




Offline dssjh

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2018, 05:53:37 PM »
i agree with pretty much everything abc has said -- other than the fact that other countries are more accepting of death...if we weren't embracing it, we wouldn't be so eager to have health care be considered a luxury!

Offline Gordan

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 09:03:42 PM »
My parents are from Israel and my dad moved back in retirement. He was a HEAVY life long smoker and is a poster child for preexisting conditions. Since he has moved back he had a heart attack and pneumonia. Thanks to their healthcare system he was able to get the care he needed. He was able to stay in the hospital and not worry about the cost too much. He was VERY aware about how that would not have been the case here in the US. The cost of the two incidents here in the US would have absolutely eroded his retirement savings.

I have to say that I get pretty irritated by all the politicians that jump up and down and bend over backwards over their support for Israel but, turn around and disparage any talk of universal healthcare. Israel IS a socialized country and yes people bare the tax burden of what that is. It is difficult to "get ahead" but, healthcare and care for seniors is never really an issue there.

Even Crowley "claimed" to support medicare for all in the primary. He was probably just paying lip service to that knowing the burden would not really fall on him.

My initial issue with Ocasio-Cortez was that her campaign was like she was running for Governor or Mayor. Really your congress person is just representing the interests of the district. They can propose bills but, it's not an executive role. I think she's been pretty straight up about what she is like and she won. It's good to have someone advocate for health care, the climate, and immigrants rights. Those are all things that we are effected by here in 14.

Jackson Heights Life

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Democratic Socialism
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 09:03:42 PM »