Washington Plaza

[jh_coop_buyer]

Yeah, I heard that about the three being sold for lower prices. I wonder how low?

Streeteasy records one contract at $426,700 for a 915 sq/ft unit, which gives a cost of $466 sq/ft.  This is about 11% lower than the typical asking prices at Washington Plaza, which average at $522 sq/ft.

The relative lower cost for this apartment is because it is a one bedroom apartment.  A two bedroom apartment always demands a higher dollar per square feet (at least 10% more) and a three bedroom apartment demands much higher dollar per square feet (at least 20% more)

[Dodger]

Whoops I misread the listing. Wow those maintenance prices for the two bedrooms are very high for the neighborhood. You would expect such maintenance charges to put more downward pressure on the price.

Street easy says the maintenance for the two bedroom in contract is $821.

I see a 1 bedroom in contract listed at $426 with an $821 maintenance.

The smallest JR4/2 bedroom jumps to $1077

The bigger 2 bedroom jumps to $1,231 maintenance, but even in that unit the 2nd bedroom is only about 12x7 feet.

[Simka]

Yeah, the maintenances are high. And in some of the renovating they've been doing, they've turned one-bedrooms into two-bedrooms, so the second bedroom is pretty small. (And, for the record, I'm not saying that's unusual. I've seen that done a lot.)

And yes, the one that's in contract was listed for $426,700. The actual purchase price won't be listed on Street Easy till after the closing (if it happens).

http://www.nuplacerealty.com/JacksonHeights/Coop/73-12-35th-Ave-JACKSON-HEIGHTS-NY/1036

[Simka]

The maintenance seems very high, $1077 for a 2 bedroom? And if you look at the floor plan it's actually a JR4. I think that will keep the prices down somewhat.

Maybe because it has a doorman? Man, I would never live in a doorman building, so not worth the cost, not to mention holiday tipping and just lack of privacy.

It's being sold as having an "attended gatehouse" at "key hours." That doesn't mean there's a doorman, it means that during certain hours a guy is supposed to be on duty at the gatehouse (though often he'll be away, occupied by other chores). Visitors to the building are not screened or announced in any way. That may be a plus, if you're concerned about privacy. But it also means that if you want a package delivered while you're out, you can't totally count on someone being there to receive it. That may change when it becomes a coop, but if they're going to have someone sit in the gatehouse and not do anything else, they'll need someone to do the other chores that guy's been doing. BTW, as of now there are six staffers—super, porters, gardeners, and so on.

[Simka]

But here's the thing: I'm an inveterate real estate window shopper. I browse internet coop listings all the time, and I have for years. I don't recall ever seeing this sort of listing for a noneviction coop conversion.

Do you suppose that could be because most of the rental conversions to coop listings you've seen aren't being marketed as luxury builds?

Yes. Because that's exactly what I was saying: Noneviction coop conversions aren't typically marketed as luxury apartment buildings.

Renderings are common in the luxury market.

and how does that relate to washington plaza?

You failed to notice it's being marketed as a luxury building?

Take a look at the sign on the building. Do a search for the word luxury on the website.

AMENITIES

At Washington Plaza, a thoughtful array of services, including gatehouse entry, new lobby and hallway designs, private garden, fitness center and laundry facilities, create a lifestyle rich in convenience and luxury.

AVAILABILITY

A wide variety of one, two and three bedroom plans are designed to offer the ultimate in luxury living. We invite you to see our current availabilities.

HA! Not to speak for dssjh, but this is just more of how Nu-Place is marketing the building versus reality. Simply using the word "luxury" on a sign or website doesn't make it so. They may be using some "luxury" finishes in the renovations (though they claim that the kitchen countertops are Caesarstone), but the building itself is not anywhere near what most people would put in the luxury class. Maybe you're imagining that they're going to do a complete overhaul of all common areas to make them match the renderings? Replace all of the elevators and the building entrances? If they do, and if they install a full-time doorman, it may approach luxurious. Of course, the shareholders will find their maintenance going up even higher if that happens.

[dssjh]

they could also market it as being five minutes to manhattan. doesn't make it so.

it's a perfectly nice set of buildings. not luxury.

Renderings are common in the luxury market.

and how does that relate to washington plaza?

You failed to notice it's being marketed as a luxury building?

[CaptainFlannel]

So, what we've established here is that a rental conversion to a luxury building isn't often the norm. And because of that you  (Simka) aren't familiar with the use of renderings, because you don't look at listings for luxury conversions very often. That means the criticism of use of renderings is moot.

Now, you guys can disagree whether or not the building will be up to "luxury" standards. Remember, this is about the future state of the building and amenities, not the current. Why don't you go set up an appointment to see a unit, and then go to the sales office to find out about replacing the elevators or what's being done in the hallways beyond what is represented on the site?

It seems pretty clear to me based on the marketing, as well as the high asking prices and maintenance, the buyers they are targeting are people who don't mind spending more for services and finishes. Marketing it as a luxury building is a no brainer for the developer and realtor.

I also think based on what Simka describes as needing to be done to make it a "luxury" building, that Simka perhaps hasn't spent time in many buildings that describe themselves as "luxury." The older ones routinely have plain hallways that haven't been updated in 20 years. Even the new build hallways aren't anything to brag about. Industrial carpets and modern light fixtures, and walls with only one layer of paint. Wow, how luxurious.

FYI, the website does not claim it's a five minute commute to Manhattan. It claims a 12 minute commute. That's a pretty hopeful regular commute from 74th Street, but it's actually a reality on the best days.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you guys are just bothered by the first big harbinger of gentrification for the coop market in Jackson Heights.

[dssjh]

i didn't say they were claiming a five minute commute, i am saying they should be claiming it. heck, they should be claiming two minutes, since future commutes could be speeded by hydraulic subterranean tubes. and the on-site masseuse is  no-brainer.

as far as a harbinger of gentrification? we already have million dollar and near million dollar apartments in legitimately luxurious buildings -- the towers, chateau, and so on. if you think making minor improvements to a run of the mill -- if perfectly nice -- rental building makes for a housing revolution, well, amuse yourself as you see fit.

[Simka]

So, what we've established here is that a rental conversion to a luxury building isn't often the norm. And because of that you  (Simka) aren't familiar with the use of renderings, because you don't look at listings for luxury conversions very often. That means the criticism of use of renderings is moot.

You've only established that in your own mind. Yes, I said that if renderings like the ones Nu-Place is using for WP are used in noneviction plan coop conversions, I haven't seen them. But even if they're being used all over the place and I've just happened to miss them, I think the renderings are ridiculous and misleading, and since that's my opinion, you can't render it moot. So nyah nyah.

Now, you guys can disagree whether or not the building will be up to "luxury" standards. Remember, this is about the future state of the building and amenities, not the current. Why don't you go set up an appointment to see a unit, and then go to the sales office to find out about replacing the elevators or what's being done in the hallways beyond what is represented on the site?

It seems pretty clear to me based on the marketing, as well as the high asking prices and maintenance, the buyers they are targeting are people who don't mind spending more for services and finishes. Marketing it as a luxury building is a no brainer for the developer and realtor.

I also think based on what Simka describes as needing to be done to make it a "luxury" building, that Simka perhaps hasn't spent time in many buildings that describe themselves as "luxury." The older ones routinely have plain hallways that haven't been updated in 20 years. Even the new build hallways aren't anything to brag about. Industrial carpets and modern light fixtures, and walls with only one layer of paint. Wow, how luxurious.

I'm basing my interpretation of Nu-Place's definition of "luxury" on their renderings and copywriting and also just plain common sense. If I look around our common areas through the eyes of someone who's expecting luxury, I see things I normally filter out, like outdated, dinged-up elevator cabs and hallways with badly patched, scuffed-up paint and mailboxes that look like they were tumbled in a clothes dryer. Are you saying the sponsor can leave those things alone and Washington Plaza will still be luxury? Awesome!

Honestly, it sounds to me like you guys are just bothered by the first big harbinger of gentrification for the coop market in Jackson Heights.

I'm not a fan of gentrification, but that's not what prompted my criticism of Nu-Place's sales approach. I know you've proven yourself immune to understanding this, but to me, that approach is laughable and misleading. I hadn't thought much about the kind of buyers they're hoping to attract with their cheesy renderings and grandiose copywriting when I started to make fun of those things here. My attitude was just "WTF???" But by patiently hanging in there and refusing to accept that I found the listings hilarious, you've managed to call my attention to the kind of people my new neighbors are likely to be. So, um, thanks? 

[Lilybell]

Not to speak for dssjh, but this is just more of how Nu-Place is marketing the building versus reality. Simply using the word "luxury" on a sign or website doesn't make it so. They may be using some "luxury" finishes in the renovations (though they claim that the kitchen countertops are Caesarstone), but the building itself is not anywhere near what most people would put in the luxury class.

I think they are definitely aiming towards the luxury market with this building (or maybe the "almost-luxury" market if that's a thing that exists). The renovations I've seen (I haven't seen a completely finished apartment) are beautifully done and the finishes are high end. I know they are planning to renovate all of the lobby and hallway areas to match the renderings.  They will probably spruce up the outside as well - not the courtyard, I mean things like replacing the chain link fence on 73rd street with something nicer.

The May listing of sales has been posted in the lobbies: 1 apartment in contract so far. A few of us had heard that 3 have been sold - not sure if that was false or if they are still negotiating or if they fell through. I'm busting to know what the one in contract is selling for.

I completely missed a section in the black book that contains floor plans of vacant apartments. My floor plan is there and has been made into a full-two bedroom (it used to be the dining area; one of those rounded ones). It's no longer rounded (which was a neat look but wasted space), they built a wall there and knocked down another one to open up the kitchen.  They got rid of a dressing room to make a larger bathroom.  I love the changes - I've often said my apartment is too big for a 1-bedroom.  The thing that bothers me is that the massive reconstruction is not taken into consideration regarding prices.  The difference between the insider price I'd pay for a non-renovated 1 bedroom unit and the outsider price for it's  a conversion to a luxury 2-bedroom doesn't make sense. It might make more sense for me to make an offer on the renovated apartment instead.

[CaptainFlannel]

It's almost like you think Simka there's some industry standard on what "luxury" means. There isn't. Or that Nu-Place has defined what "luxury" means to them. They haven't. They've simply used the term in their marketing copy. The word "organic" is probably better defined. It's for the market to decide if the apartments and building meet the market's understanding of what a luxury pre-war building should offer. That will be decided by how successful the realtors are in selling the units for asking price or above. Stayed tuned.

Luxury is by definition, as it's being used here, a marketing term. Claiming a 5 minute commute to Manhattan when that's impossible isn't "marketing" it's deceptive. Because it's a lie. Just like rendering in a golf course backing up to the building would be a lie. Calling a pre-war building, with high end finishes in newly renovated apartments, with nice appliances, crown molding, high end cabinetry, a gatehouse, renovated common areas, and a fitness center a luxury building isn't a lie. That's pretty much what the market expects for a luxury pre-war building. That you Simka expect differently suggests to me you might not be that familiar with many pre-war buildings that market themselves as "luxury." (Note, new "luxury" builds have different standards. Sure the market demands high end finishes, nice appliances, etc., but the standards for size are different, and modern conveniences like a washer/dryer in the unit, in-unit temperature control are expected).

Where I do think what the market expects in a pre-war luxury building and what the floor plans of the available apartments show don't match up might be the smallest units currently shown on the site. The floor plans show an 8 X 13 bedroom with one closet. That strikes me as a rather small bedroom for a one bedroom. The dining room looks a little small to me too, and kind of seems like an extension of the foyer. My guess is it would make a fine office space and to shift the dining area to space right by the kitchen with small wall left intact.

I know you've proven yourself immune to understanding this, but to me, that approach is laughable and misleading....But by patiently hanging in there and refusing to accept that I found the listings hilarious...

What part of your description of the marketing of this building as misleading and getting responses from me disagreeing with your stated assessment of the building do you find so hard to understand?No kidding you find it "hilarious." You also have stated it's "misleading." Synonyms for "misleading" would include deceptive. So you think it's misleading, state it's misleading, and then get up in arms with someone for disagreeing with your assessment of how the building is being marketing. And then trying to claim they fail to understand you? Get out of here with that.

[lalochezia]

https://xkcd.com/386/

[Matt]

CaptainFlannel, do you live in Washington Plaza? If so, for how long and do you rent or own? Just curious.

[Simka]

https://xkcd.com/386/

Oh, yes...I have been reminding myself of that. But thank you. 

[Simka]

I think they are definitely aiming towards the luxury market with this building (or maybe the "almost-luxury" market if that's a thing that exists). The renovations I've seen (I haven't seen a completely finished apartment) are beautifully done and the finishes are high end. I know they are planning to renovate all of the lobby and hallway areas to match the renderings.  They will probably spruce up the outside as well - not the courtyard, I mean things like replacing the chain link fence on 73rd street with something nicer.

I haven't seen a completely finished apartment yet, but I have seen a kitchen. It was nicely done. And I assume the bathrooms will look much like the bathrooms in the renderings. Generally, the renovations are probably fairly high-quality. I'm not sure what they're doing to the floors, though. Their renderings make the floors look like laminate. You saw some, didn't you? Are they still the hardwood, just newly stained darker?

I know it's logical to assume they're planning to renovate the lobby and hallway areas to match the renderings, but did someone who actually has knowledge of that confirm it to you? I'm sure they'd like potential buyers to believe that will happen. But all we have to go by is the one lobby rendering (which doesn't even appear to be configured like any of the existing lobbies). Of all the renderings, that one strikes me the most as being a designer's proposal.

I completely missed a section in the black book that contains floor plans of vacant apartments. My floor plan is there and has been made into a full-two bedroom (it used to be the dining area; one of those rounded ones). It's no longer rounded (which was a neat look but wasted space), they built a wall there and knocked down another one to open up the kitchen.  They got rid of a dressing room to make a larger bathroom.  I love the changes - I've often said my apartment is too big for a 1-bedroom.  The thing that bothers me is that the massive reconstruction is not taken into consideration regarding prices.  The difference between the insider price I'd pay for a non-renovated 1 bedroom unit and the outsider price for it's  a conversion to a luxury 2-bedroom doesn't make sense. It might make more sense for me to make an offer on the renovated apartment instead.

Yes, that's the thing that makes the insider "discount" of 10 percent so insulting. Insiders would be buying unrenovated apartments whose conditions run the gamut. Most of them probably have the budget kitchen and bath remodels that were done when the apartments turned over, and some have bathroom walls and floors that were torn up and patched with unmatching tile when the water system was upgraded. And I doubt that any of the floors have been redone since the occupants moved in. These discrepancies should add up to a discount of way more than 10 percent.

A 900+-square-foot apartment that's being sold as a one bedroom goes for way less than a 1,000-square-foot one bedroom that's been reconfigured to have a small second bedroom. And the maintenance is considerably less, too. If I wanted to buy, I'd go for an unconverted one bedroom.