Garbage on street

[Dawnie]

Timing is one thing.  Common sense is another.  I think everyone was raised to know this where ever in the world you are from.  REMEMBER the "issue" is about urinating on the Street?

 I'm done discussing this with you TODDG!!!

[buddy]

I agree it's disgusting.  They're complaining about the same thing on the Park Slope Forum, but not blaming it on foreigners.

I don't think anything should be blamed on "foreigners" since most of the time they are "Americans".    But I do think some countries are dirtier than others and some countries are notoriously clean... like Switzerland.  Does that mean if 73rd/74th Streets were dominated by Swiss restaurants and shops it would be cleaner?  I don't know because other "Americans" would still be passing thru and dropping their Starbucks coffee cups. Plus 73rd/74th Streets lead to the main train station which means higher foot traffic.  More people, more litter. There are cities in this country that are much cleaner than New York City.  Is it because there is less ethnic diversity in some of those cities or is it because there is just less populace.    (I personally think it's more of the latter.)  Nevertheless, it would be nice to have a BID working to keep the business area cleaner.

[Chuckster]

In my opinion a lot of the behavior considered by most people as socially unacceptable does have to do with cultural upbringing.  This is not to say that those born and raised in this country may not be guilty of similar social infractions.  Keep in mind that many, not all, of today's immigrants come from environments that are literally a world apart from what we are accustomed to in the United States.  Hence, social norms may differ greatly based on economics, education, etc.  What may be considered acceptable behavior in a foreign country is frowned upon here.

Not naming any particular country, my brother once shared his experiences while he traveled abroad.  He explained how on one of his travels, he witnessed how adults and children alike would just drop their pants at any given moment when the need would arise.  Mind you, he was traveling through a very poor area of the country, whereas, in what he called "the city", this type of behavior was banned.

[koku]

In my opinion a lot of the behavior considered by most people as socially unacceptable does have to do with cultural upbringing.  This is not to say that those born and raised in this country may not be guilty of similar social infractions.  Keep in mind that many, not all, of today's immigrants come from environments that are literally a world apart from what we are accustomed to in the United States.  Hence, social norms may differ greatly based on economics, education, etc.  What may be considered acceptable behavior in a foreign country is frowned upon here.

Well said and I think everyone pretty much agree on this.  Though being populated could play some factor, mostly I think it is cultural background that affect the cleaness of the public space.  There is a city which is far more crowded than New York City yet that city is far more cleaner.  This is not because the sanitation dept of the city works harder but because each individuals simple don't litter.  There are far more people using the big subway entrance on 75th st on Roosevelt Ave than 73rd st on 37th road.  Yet, the entrance on 73rd st is way dirtier and I am always embarrassed to bring my friend from other part of city using this entrace/exist. 

Being said, the question is that unacceptable social behavior in the US done by person from different culture should be accepted because that's how the person was raised?  If an American woman is dating with a guy from a country where it is ok to be shovenistic and abuse women, the guy should be forgiven??  Shouldn't  guy be taught that it is not ok in this country to abuse women?? 

[JHICON]

Please it's not just "foreigners" drunk "non-foreigners" (if one wants to put it like that even though i disagree since where all technically foreigners)

are just the same so I disagree with you on that one.

[Shelby2]

Well said and I think everyone pretty much agree on this.  Though being populated could play some factor, mostly I think it is cultural background that affect the cleaness of the public space. 

Sorry, Koku, we don't all agree on this one.  Please don't try to speak for everyone on here when you make your statements.

One of the great things about forming and organizing as a community is that we collectively get to set the behavioral norms.  Some of these norms are easy... we'd all like JH to be the type of place where people don't feel comfortable littering or encouraging their kids to pee on the street. 

Some of these norms are less easy... we'd also all like to feel enough collective ownership of the neighborhood that we feel brave empowered to confront people politely when they violate our community norms.  Dawnie did the right thing when she approached the woman about this issue.  This was hard to do, but gets easier once we know that other members of our community are grateful when somebody takes this type of action.

And perhaps we disagree on what some of these norms should be.  But I, for one, would like JH to be a place that celebrates and embraces is diversity, and doesn't blame antisocial behavior on culture or nationality.  If you're in our community, you are part of it, and you are expected to behave in certain ways, simple as that.

So, please, let's discuss what can we do to foster a community norm that takes pride in clean streets?

[buddy]

Common sense is another.  I think everyone was raised to know this where ever in the world you are from. 

That's the whole problem: common sense is not common to all people.  Not everyone feels the same about what is socially accepted behavior.  And in one of my earlier posts on this tread, I mentioned a young guy (not a child with his Mom) and his girlfriend.  Well he was peeing on a co-op garage door.  He was born here.  Raised here.  Wasn't drunk.  Just obnoxious behavior.  I've traveled extensively in this country.  Obnoxious, thoughtless behavior is everywhere.  And yes there are much cleaner cities.  So how do they do it?  That's the question here.  How do we make a positive change in our community? I'd work towards that end goal.

[koku]

Sorry, Koku, we don't all agree on this one.  Please don't try to speak for everyone on here when you make your statements.

what i mean by "this" is chuckster saying "a lot of the behavior considered by most people as socially unacceptable does have to do with cultural upbringing.  This is not to say that those born and raised in this country may not be guilty of similar social infractions.  Keep in mind that many, not all, of today's immigrants come from environments that are literally a world apart from what we are accustomed to in the United States.  Hence, social norms may differ greatly based on economics, education, etc.  What may be considered acceptable behavior in a foreign country is frowned upon here. "

I have been traveling lot of countries and I felt this is so true.  In one of the countries I visited, it was dirty even from the airport.  When I visited one of the house there, they keep their house really clean.  But once you go out to the street, it is different.  So people have different perception about "public"  So, what I mean is cultural difference DOES EXIST in this world about littering. 

And it is necessary to consider this cultural difference when we try to solve the problem.  Just like if a society has lot of violence among youth, we don't just criticize their violent behavior itself.  We think about where the violence comes from such as maybe violent movies or video games. 



 

[Chuckster]

If you're in our community, you are part of it, and you are expected to behave in certain ways, simple as that.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Shelby, but it's not as simple as that.  We wouldn't be having this discussion if it was.  We also wouldn't have the dog poop issues that we all hate.  I can't tell you how many times I've addressed people not cleaning up after their dogs only to be told to mind my own business or if it bothers me that much, to just clean it up myself...and I have.  Some people just seem to have a sense of entitlement and these are the same that have absolutely no pride in their community.  In many cases, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

The public urination issue is a tough one.  There aren't many public restrooms available in the neighborhood, but maybe we can point out the few that we do have like the library and Travers Park.  Anyone know of others?  When my nephews were toddlers, my sister never had a problem asking store owners for use of their bathrooms for the kids.  She was never denied. 

[toddg]

I agree that individuals' sense of entitlement and lack of civic pride is central to this problem.

The point Shelby2 and I have been trying to make is that we need to confront the problem in this vein, not explain it away as due to "cultural differences."  Individuals who feel they are part of a community, and not alienated from it, will be much more likely to have civic pride and concern for their neighbors' quality of life.  We need a positive, inclusive strategy for demonstrating that Jackson Heights values clean, attractive public spaces.  Hopefully the leadership that JH Community Journal and the Western JH Alliance are playing on this issue will begin to pay off.

In my hometown of Stony Brook, NY, way out in the suburbs, the trash cans in the village center used to carry a quote from Abraham Lincoln: "I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives."   This may sound corny, but as a kid, those trash cans were actually a source of community pride for me.  The Lincoln quote is probably a bit stuffy and heavy handed for Jackson Heights... but something with a cool logo or slogan that conveys community unity and pride could be a start.

[Avela]

The problem with political correctness is that you can't say what you really want to say because of the repercussions.

[NYCMacUser]

. . . that we need to confront the problem in this vein, not explain it away as due to "cultural differences."  Individuals who feel they are part of a community, and not alienated from it, will be much more likely to have civic pride and concern for their neighbors' quality of life.

Unfortunately, IMHO, this is never going to happen. How many of any diverse community are working (and praying) for the day they can return to their country. I don't believe that people with cultural differences feel alienated from the community as too many of them are nowhere planning on making it their home. Jackson Heights, just like Astoria and many other small communities in Queens, The Bronx and Brooklyn are magnets for immigrant assemblage. When they think "home" they are thinking "my country" and that country is not the U.S. You may try to incorporate their cultural differences into the program of making them responsible to the community-at-large, but those differences will always remain. People tend to group together for the commonality of thought and socio-economic backgrounds. These pockets of people tend to have the type of "ghetto mentality" that they came here in order to escape. Historically, they have proven that they don't want to blend, they chose to be with their own and that they don''t believe in the "melting pot" mind frame. It takes generations to become a part of. The Jews did it. The Italians did it. The Irish did it. This new group of immigrants will also do it . . . in time.

Until then, let's gently and politely tell someone we see littering or spitting on the street that is isn't considered a nice thing to do.

[JHICON]

I see all these comment made about "immigrants" and what not,  about the way some behave and i agree with the fact that all the immigrants that have come to this county all adapted over many years, Irish, Italians, everyone etc... but majority of people here fear change and hate change. For example let it be the non-foreigner who is use to there environment, once a immigrant shows up and they show some sort of different behavior = change = change in the non-foreigners environment = fear,or a generalizations is made,  which leads to complaints and unfortunately one immigrant or foreigner w.e. you people are calling them, has to spoil for the rest. Not all immigrants are alike it all depends where you are from and how one is raised in there country = social class pretty much. So instead of finding who to blame or point the finger at who is doing what we are all immigrants unless you are native American, we were brought up differently and we should all work together to make thing happen instead of finding someone to blame and than make is seem like your not blaming anyone specially when in reality you know very well what your talking about. Face the truth, anyone can talk about change its about making it happen. Actions speak louder than words, other than complaining here, next time when you see something that you know isn't right than say something but if your just gonna come on and complain about but never do anything than why bother, your just depending on others, and that leads to no change. 

[GregNYC]

Garbage on the street is one thing but, yesterday I was VERY UPSET when I saw a woman (I shouldn't even give her that title) holding her 2 or 3yr old son next to her Mercedes Benz and letting him urinate on the street like some animal.  I was appalled by this and said something to her.  I don't understand why anyone would do this especially when it was in front of a food store (Trade Fair) and across the street are several stores the Mother could have taken her son into use there facilities.  Of course I said something but as I did so, I twisted my ankle (and had to get home asap because the twist was pretty bad) enough about me, I just don't understand why people from different Countries come into this Country and make it dirty when they have so many choices to keep it clean?  Is it just ignorance or laziness?  All I know is I was raised a very different way.

I don't think peeing in public is a cultural thing.  I saw two Caucasian men peeing on the subway platform at Queens Plaza.  I also saw a Caucasian man peeing on the street in Chelsea.

[buddy]

The problem with political correctness is that you can't say what you really want to say because of the repercussions.

That's true, Avela.  And I'm not a fan of political correctness sometimes myself.  But for all the comments that point to immigrants as the problem I just want to ask:  are you saying that you don't know anyone who is either Hispanic or Asian or Indian/Pakistani and they do not know better than to litter or pee etc. in public and that Caucasian second or third generation American are not guilty of these things?  Because I think what some of us are trying to point out is that that's not true.  There are plenty of 3rd generation, blue eyed blonde Americans littering, peeing etc. and there are immigrants who are just as appalled as the rest of us at that behavior.  That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists.  I have best friends who are Muslim and they're horrified at what is happening in the world by other self proclaimed Muslims.  It's not a problem that can be pigeon holed like that.  Just because someone sees a mother letting her child pee in the street doesn't mean that some other mother of any other ethnic background hasn't done the same thing at one point in time.  It's bigger than ethnicity.  But we happen to live in a heavily diverse ethnic community so it's easier to point fingers.  I've lived in predominantly Caucasian communities and the same problems occur.  People need to be re-educated about what society finds acceptable and more importantly, unacceptable behavior.  Anyway, guys, I love a good argument and I'm not taking anything said here personally nor do I want anyone to think I'm attacking other points of view.  But I think we may have "beaten this horse" enough for the time being.   I'm getting off my own soapbox after this post.