Jackson Heights Life

Get Connected => Neighborhood Chat => Topic started by: Bel84 on August 17, 2020, 08:22:28 AM

Title: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Bel84 on August 17, 2020, 08:22:28 AM
For those who think closing 34th Avenue permanently to traffic is a fantastic idea I ask you to please consider what this will do to traffic on 35th Avenue. It will create a nightmare for people walking, driving and trying to park on this residential avenue. In addition,  it will make it slower for the Q49 bus to travel, you know the bus line we were all trying to save months ago. I'm all for keeping 34th closed as long as COVID keeps people out of school and work and the weather is nice but seriously,  everyone is going to go back at some point, the weather will turn colder, the street will be emptier and 35th Avenue will be swamped. Please don't sign petition to keep it open. It's a nice fantasy, let's keep it that way.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: lalochezia on August 17, 2020, 08:38:44 AM
Closures like these should be part of an integrated transport planning process.

It's legit if a proposal to close a street has mitigation factors worked in. 

The outcomes you suggest are not inevitable if closures are conducted in that way. 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 17, 2020, 10:30:06 AM
For those who think closing 34th Avenue permanently to traffic is a fantastic idea I ask you to please consider what this will do to traffic on 35th Avenue. It will create a nightmare for people walking, driving and trying to park on this residential avenue. In addition,  it will make it slower for the Q49 bus to travel, you know the bus line we were all trying to save months ago. I'm all for keeping 34th closed as long as COVID keeps people out of school and work and the weather is nice but seriously,  everyone is going to go back at some point, the weather will turn colder, the street will be emptier and 35th Avenue will be swamped. Please don't sign petition to keep it open. It's a nice fantasy, let's keep it that way.

I disagree. This neighborhood lacks open space for us.  I choose pedestrians over cars.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Bel84 on August 17, 2020, 11:36:31 AM
I choose pedestrians over cars too. And I live on 35th Avenue. Not interested in the street outside my apartment becoming
clogged with the noise & pollution of more cars so the people on 34th Avenue can play. Can you move the cars to another avenue altogether Mayor?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 17, 2020, 12:42:24 PM
If the closures on 37 and 34 become permanent then they would need to remove all parking from 35. The traffic on 35 is insane now, and idiots keep double parking making it even worse.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 17, 2020, 12:58:32 PM
I have to agree with Bel84. I also live on 35th Avenue. The overflow from Northern Blvd. that was on 34th Avenue is now on 35th which is also narrower than 34th. I'm glad to see the renovation of Travers Park, we really needed that. I said nothing when Travers took over 78th Street permanently, it adds to the park. When that was done people was upset about loosing a south bound street. The result was changing the direction of 75th Street to south bound. Now there is more traffic, noise, etc. on 75th.  Closing 34th permanently is a mistake. As a temporary closure it has benefits.

Enhancing the community needs to mean the community as a whole. 

I have been saying since the start of the Historic District that the boundaries of it need to be expanded. For the moment we see what happens to the non district parts of Jackson Heights. Maybe people think it is unimportant, but we loose those buffer zones that make this neighborhood what it is and can be.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: jh413 on August 17, 2020, 03:13:07 PM
the counter argument is that if traffic on 35th stays bad or becomes worse, then drivers will try to avoid coming into the area.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 17, 2020, 03:40:38 PM
haha drivers won't have a choice. 35th will just join the list of streets that has constant honking
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on August 17, 2020, 03:53:48 PM
 Finally! I have been saying this from the onset of the 34th ave closure. It's not the right avenue to be closed permanently - weekends might work though- as it's a vital artery in the flow of mobility in Jackson Heights. Bikes, cars, school buses, trucks, etc are able to navigate through the length of JH fairly smoothly. Taking 34th Ave out forces overcrowding on Northern Blvd and worse, real congestion on 35th Ave which is already too busy and has the important bus route. If any street in JH could handle a semi-permanent closure, it's 37th since traffic there is a nightmare already and anything would be an improvement with the crazy turns and double parking. Deliveries there to businesses on 37th Ave would be from the side streets or at night. Feasibility study anyone?
  For the real and practical betterment, keep 34th Ave open to traffic!
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 17, 2020, 04:28:32 PM
driving in nyc is already higher than pre-covid levels and will just get worse as everyone avoids public transport

https://www.apple.com/covid19/mobility

closing streets when everyone was meant to be staying indoors never really made sense to me but makes less sense now
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: dssjh on August 17, 2020, 04:52:05 PM
haha drivers won't have a choice. 35th will just join the list of streets that has constant honking

i've lived on 35th, facing the avenue, for almost 20 years. no change since the open street opened. non-stop honking forever.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: JHHD on August 17, 2020, 05:22:06 PM
I choose pedestrians over cars too. And I live on 35th Avenue. Not interested in the street outside my apartment becoming
clogged with the noise & pollution of more cars so the people on 34th Avenue can play. Can you move the cars to another avenue altogether Mayor?
34th Ave is open to everyone in the neighborhood, not just residents of 34th Ave.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beherenow on August 17, 2020, 08:47:59 PM
driving in nyc is already higher than pre-covid levels and will just get worse as everyone avoids public transport.

Indeed, it's my impression that more and more families in JH are buying cars because they don't feel safe using buses and subways. I don't have any stats on that but there has been a surge of new requests for permanent parking spots on JH Families in the last few months and I know a few young couples on the hunt for cars.  That's likely to continue.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Meowtron on August 18, 2020, 08:10:23 AM
Definitely a bummer to lose 34th ave completely. The community should at least have it open on weekends and perhaps in the evening (5-8) on Fridays.

It’s a great asset to the community and allows children and adults to exercise and bike safely (for most part) down the median which is helpful for families that have no car.

Travers Park is great, but honestly too small and overcrowded for this community and that’s become more obvious as you see all the people using the median everyday.

Would love to see a study done on the increase in traffic on 35th ave to see how badly it gets affected. And how much is data versus perception.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: temujin on August 18, 2020, 05:05:51 PM
Ummm I am not aware there is a petition, I will sign up. But yeah, I think we should at least keep it close on the weekend for start.

I think we just not tackle this smartly, 35th ave should be enforce to no double park during certain hours or no parking during certain hours to speed up the flow. Every time I see a UPS, Fedex or FreshDirect or any other truck double park the whole traffic is backed up.

I am also one of those as described here, that I bough a car during this lock down. I own a car for over 10+ years, then last 4 years I went car free. Parking does seem a lot tougher, but I don't think 35th ave traffic are as bad as what it is before 34th closure, or other post about Northern Ave, as it is always bad even before lock down.

I am also noticing a lot people moving out as well, at least in my building 4 of my neighbor already move out and selling or sold their apartment already.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: petegart on August 18, 2020, 09:11:16 PM
Hi, I use 34th Ave as a place to ride my bike, as well as walks - and I love that it is closed to traffic for now.
One point I want to make is that all the parades that usually take place almost every Sunday have been cancelled this year. 
In the past, if we had to drive on one of the parade days, the traffic all around was severely impacted in a negative way. 
If + when the pandemic crisis is behind us, we cannot have 37th Ave And 34th Ave closed.  It will be complete and total gridlock. 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beherenow on August 20, 2020, 12:21:53 PM
Closures like these should be part of an integrated transport planning process.

It's legit if a proposal to close a street has mitigation factors worked in. 

The outcomes you suggest are not inevitable if closures are conducted in that way.

Perhaps those outcomes aren't inevitable, but does anyone who advocates permanent closure of 34th Avenue have answers to the objections raised here, mainly the increased traffic congestion on 35th and Northern?  I haven't read any ideas, other than banning parking on 35th, which would cause nightmarish problems for those who must deal with the already limited street parking available.

 The petition that's going around, BTW, calls for closing 34th so it's possible to walk or bike all the way to Flushing Meadow
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 20, 2020, 01:51:15 PM
There is no solution to increased car traffic.

Anywhere in the world. Car traffic rises to overwhelm whichever highway is built to alleviate it.
Until the traffic is worse than before.

This is a global phenomenon. Not just in Jackson Heights.

The only solution is less cars.

Quickly, if 34th Ave is closed it will become known that Jackson Heights should be avoided by drivers.

And presto. Less cars.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on August 20, 2020, 04:44:05 PM
 Yes to the feasibility study. Seems needed here to provide some data points to add to our speculation and anecdotal material. Does the DOT do these studies in advance of closing streets? Hoping so.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 20, 2020, 05:48:27 PM
There is no solution to increased car traffic.

Anywhere in the world. Car traffic rises to overwhelm whichever highway is built to alleviate it.
Until the traffic is worse than before.

This is a global phenomenon. Not just in Jackson Heights.

The only solution is less cars.

Quickly, if 34th Ave is closed it will become known that Jackson Heights should be avoided by drivers.

And presto. Less cars.

Do you really think it's that simple? Are we in the neighborhood supposed to just get use to it?
Or maybe you think 35th should revert to the original plan - no parking, a single lane East, a single lane West and a grassy mall up the middle for more outdoor gardens and benches. We could also close 37th too and maybe all the side streets while we are at it. We can all walk from Northern or Roosevelt, and ask deliveries to do the same.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: 80JHer on August 21, 2020, 07:51:21 AM
If this whole Experiment was to promote social distancing, then I would argue it’s a complete failure. 

The streets of Jh have never been more crowded.  Travers Park attendance has swelled beyond belief. 

Where are all these people coming from?  I suggested this open avenue has acted like a conduit & we have jammed more people into an already condensed area. 

Close it down and clean the street for gods sake.     
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: theplanesland on August 21, 2020, 08:20:41 AM
If this whole Experiment was to promote social distancing, then I would argue it’s a complete failure. 

The streets of Jh have never been more crowded.  Travers Park attendance has swelled beyond belief. 

Where are all these people coming from?  I suggested this open avenue has acted like a conduit & we have jammed more people into an already condensed area. 

Close it down and clean the street for gods sake.   

The experiment was supposed to give people a place to get some fresh air. It's working.

The people are coming from the neighborhood. But in the normal world, a lot of people in the neighborhood would go to Central Park, Flushing Meadows, Rockaway, Forest Park, etc. etc. etc. And a lot more people would be at work and in school. But we have nobody commuting, people still not taking the subway for recreation, etc. so we can't spread across the city. This is just what our very dense, very crowded neighborhood with very little open space produces.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 21, 2020, 09:19:48 AM
If this whole Experiment was to promote social distancing, then I would argue it’s a complete failure. 

The streets of Jh have never been more crowded.  Travers Park attendance has swelled beyond belief. 

Where are all these people coming from?  I suggested this open avenue has acted like a conduit & we have jammed more people into an already condensed area. 

Close it down and clean the street for gods sake.   

The experiment was supposed to give people a place to get some fresh air. It's working.

The people are coming from the neighborhood. But in the normal world, a lot of people in the neighborhood would go to Central Park, Flushing Meadows, Rockaway, Forest Park, etc. etc. etc. And a lot more people would be at work and in school. But we have nobody commuting, people still not taking the subway for recreation, etc. so we can't spread across the city. This is just what our very dense, very crowded neighborhood with very little open space produces.

Agreed. Over 100K live in this neighborhood.

Parts of 34th Ave have been turned into a Summer Camp type location by the city.  For kids who can't afford to go to Summer Camps. With activities and playgroups and youth leaders.

Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

These people's priorities and values need to be  re-set.


Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: 80JHer on August 21, 2020, 10:37:31 AM
If it’s for recreation, then that’s fine.  Keep it open. But have a plan to clean it and maintain it.

But jut don’t pretend or try to sell it as some great social distancing tool to fight covid.  It seems to have increased our population density enormously.  Which is the single biggest factor for spread of the disease. 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 21, 2020, 01:42:05 PM


Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

These people's priorities and values need to be  re-set.

Quality of life and safety issues are not only about kids.

Why do I often feel that people here love to wave the kid flag? JH isn't Disney nor should it become that. If young families don't feel this place is kid friendly enough why are they here? They knew, or should have known what neighborhood they moved into.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 21, 2020, 05:23:18 PM


Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

These people's priorities and values need to be  re-set.

Quality of life and safety issues are not only about kids.

Why do I often feel that people here love to wave the kid flag? JH isn't Disney nor should it become that. If young families don't feel this place is kid friendly enough why are they here? They knew, or should have known what neighborhood they moved into.

Maybe Jackson Heights didn't used to have a big kid population decades and decades ago.

It certainly does now. And in a democracy, numbers matter...

Young families have changed the neighborhood.

It's no longer ok to not be kid friendly. As perhaps in a previous era.



Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 21, 2020, 05:47:11 PM
Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

People with kids are more likely to need to buy a car.

Jackson Heights needs more green space. But neighborhoods that make it impossible to drive in and park in are not family friendly. They also make it harder for older people to live in because public transport is often difficult for them to use too.

Optimizing for bikes and walking is great if you are young and healthy and don't have kids (and aren't in a pandemic)
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 21, 2020, 05:56:57 PM
Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

People with kids are more likely to need to buy a car.

Jackson Heights needs more green space. But neighborhoods that make it impossible to drive in and park in are not family friendly. They also make it harder for older people to live in because public transport is often difficult for them to use too.

Optimizing for bikes and walking is great if you are young and healthy and don't have kids (and aren't in a pandemic)

No way most of the families in Jackson Heights can afford a car.

You are talking about the more affluent families. Not the majority who are immigrant families.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 21, 2020, 06:16:02 PM
Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

People with kids are more likely to need to buy a car.

Jackson Heights needs more green space. But neighborhoods that make it impossible to drive in and park in are not family friendly. They also make it harder for older people to live in because public transport is often difficult for them to use too.

Optimizing for bikes and walking is great if you are young and healthy and don't have kids (and aren't in a pandemic)

No way most of the families in Jackson Heights can afford a car.

You are talking about the more affluent families. Not the majority who are immigrant families.

Not sure about "most" but many people who bought in the last 5-10 years could afford a car, based on purchase prices...

I'm just saying there is a different perspective to consider. There have been a lot of posts recently on the jhfamilies list about cars and parking. "Think of the children" might not go in the direction you think it will.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Bill on August 21, 2020, 09:47:07 PM
Who told you that immigrant families do not buy cars?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: dssjh on August 21, 2020, 10:32:21 PM
i wouldn't say that the purchase price of a car is prohibitive, but the upkeep, between parking and insurance, is a pretty hefty chunk of change -- particularly in a very depressed economy.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 21, 2020, 11:16:25 PM
I think the state of the economy means we should be trying to encourage residents to stay instead of moving out of the city or out of the state. I don't know whether permanently closing 34th Ave is a good idea or a bad idea overall, but there needs to be some analysis and community feedback, which didn't appear to happen for the initial closure.

The cost of having more open space / green space has to be paid by someone and at the moment it is being paid by anyone who has a car. Instead now might be a good time to acquire some land from businesses which no longer make financial sense to operate in the "new world", and turn that into a park.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: theplanesland on August 22, 2020, 09:09:06 AM
The 34th Avenue Open Street does not reduce the parking in the neighborhood - every parking space remains. It does not reduce the ability of people who live on 34th Avenue to access their blocks or stop directly in front of their buildings. Everyone can still do so. There is no reduction of use for car owners living on 34th Avenue. Anyone who lives on one of those blocks can turn onto it slowly, park or load, and turn off. In fact, the open street makes those spaces MORE likely to be used by local residents by preventing people from outside the neighborhood from using 34th Avenue for cruising.

Car owners on 34th Avenue are completely protected by the current plan.

The only thing it does it prevent people from using 34th Avenue as a *through route.* I live just off 35th, and I have not seen 35th gridlocked yet at any point this summer. We do not need 34th as a through route. It is much more valuable to have it as open space for the many people in the neighborhood who cannot access city parks because they're trying not to get COVID on the train. The traffic does not currently exist to justify 34th as a through route. If 35th is crowded to the point of unusability, let's revisit the issue, but not before then.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 22, 2020, 09:21:22 AM
35th is regularly gridlocked now and it will only get worse as the economy continues to open up. I literally got out of a Lyft and walked along 35th last week because cars were not moving at all. That had never happened before.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: JHResident on August 22, 2020, 09:24:51 AM
The 34th Avenue Open Street does not reduce the parking in the neighborhood - every parking space remains. It does not reduce the ability of people who live on 34th Avenue to access their blocks or stop directly in front of their buildings. Everyone can still do so. There is no reduction of use for car owners living on 34th Avenue. Anyone who lives on one of those blocks can turn onto it slowly, park or load, and turn off. In fact, the open street makes those spaces MORE likely to be used by local residents by preventing people from outside the neighborhood from using 34th Avenue for cruising.

Car owners on 34th Avenue are completely protected by the current plan.

The only thing it does it prevent people from using 34th Avenue as a *through route.* I live just off 35th, and I have not seen 35th gridlocked yet at any point this summer. We do not need 34th as a through route. It is much more valuable to have it as open space for the many people in the neighborhood who cannot access city parks because they're trying not to get COVID on the train. The traffic does not currently exist to justify 34th as a through route. If 35th is crowded to the point of unusability, let's revisit the issue, but not before then.
Some very good points. Drivers can use 34th Ave as long as someone leaves the barricades open enough to pass through slowly. Parking is plentiful during the day. Pedestrians may throw things at you and call you vile names, but it's not as bad as I feared it would be.
But 35th Ave has become impassable at times, particularly between 74th St and Leverich St. With all the double parked cars near 73rd St, buses turning, Amazon, UPS and ConEd vans double parked everywhere, you might have to wait a few red lights to pass 4 or 5 blocks at a time. Get someone to clean up the double parking and I think leaving 34th Ave closed during the day might be sustainable.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 25, 2020, 06:37:52 PM


Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

These people's priorities and values need to be  re-set.

Quality of life and safety issues are not only about kids.

Why do I often feel that people here love to wave the kid flag? JH isn't Disney nor should it become that. If young families don't feel this place is kid friendly enough why are they here? They knew, or should have known what neighborhood they moved into.

Maybe Jackson Heights didn't used to have a big kid population decades and decades ago.

It certainly does now. And in a democracy, numbers matter...

Young families have changed the neighborhood.

It's no longer ok to not be kid friendly. As perhaps in a previous era.

Perhaps you misunderstood or came to a hasty conclusion. Did I touch on a sensitive nerve?
I am in no way opposed to children or people having them. In fact that was never the case in JH at all. I did try to point out however that children do not rule this neighborhood. And yes to be truly democratic as you say means to consider that there are other needs here besides children only!

If you know the the history of JH you would acknowledge that the original marketing strategy to bringing people here was geared at Manhattan families. JH was said to be a planned community with trees, open air and recreation space where children could get out of the stifling city. A place where people could raise families, in a more gentle environment. That also meant having our commercial zone as well as our less trafficked quiet zone.

The ends of the side streets were open gardens, not built upon. On 34th and & 35th Avenues there were grassy malls with benches running up the middle. The golf course was also here then providing plenty of open space for all and included a colonial era farm house that was called "The Casino" which served as a meeting place and club house. Travers Park is the last remaining vestige of the golf course that was never built on. There were also the private gardens behind groups of buildings which still exist today. The boards that govern those private gardens have strict rules these days that barely allow for anything but looking. The problem was the housing shortage after WW2 and the end blocks, malls, and gold course all began to disappear. As a side note, even today the children's playground within Travers is placed at the Northern Blvd. end of the park, not right on 34th Ave. Is this also to be considered non kid friendly?

We also had our own small hospital in which many of JH's second generation were born. More Kids! And it really is too bad that the place couldn't have had its problems resolved and remained a hospital. it might have been an asset during this pandemic. Too many Queens hospitals were shut down and we were left at the mercy of the overburdened Elmhurst General. And what happened to our hospital and it's generous sized parking lot? A public school.... but we don't like kids here?

I said this neighborhood is not Disney nor should it be. It is also not a Club Med for singles or a Billyburgh for Hipsters. It is a wonderful well planned place with all kinds of people with all kinds of needs ALL of which need to be considered. THAT is the democratic way. Add to this our original planned "Garden Within the City" has been compromised over the years and there is only so much that can be done at this point for ALL who live here.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 26, 2020, 10:32:35 AM


Are folks really going to choose cars over kids?

These people's priorities and values need to be  re-set.

Quality of life and safety issues are not only about kids.

Why do I often feel that people here love to wave the kid flag? JH isn't Disney nor should it become that. If young families don't feel this place is kid friendly enough why are they here? They knew, or should have known what neighborhood they moved into.

Maybe Jackson Heights didn't used to have a big kid population decades and decades ago.

It certainly does now. And in a democracy, numbers matter...

Young families have changed the neighborhood.

It's no longer ok to not be kid friendly. As perhaps in a previous era.

Perhaps you misunderstood or came to a hasty conclusion. Did I touch on a sensitive nerve?
I am in no way opposed to children or people having them. In fact that was never the case in JH at all. I did try to point out however that children do not rule this neighborhood. And yes to be truly democratic as you say means to consider that there are other needs here besides children only!

If you know the the history of JH you would acknowledge that the original marketing strategy to bringing people here was geared at Manhattan families. JH was said to be a planned community with trees, open air and recreation space where children could get out of the stifling city. A place where people could raise families, in a more gentle environment. That also meant having our commercial zone as well as our less trafficked quiet zone.

The ends of the side streets were open gardens, not built upon. On 34th and & 35th Avenues there were grassy malls with benches running up the middle. The golf course was also here then providing plenty of open space for all and included a colonial era farm house that was called "The Casino" which served as a meeting place and club house. Travers Park is the last remaining vestige of the golf course that was never built on. There were also the private gardens behind groups of buildings which still exist today. The boards that govern those private gardens have strict rules these days that barely allow for anything but looking. The problem was the housing shortage after WW2 and the end blocks, malls, and gold course all began to disappear. As a side note, even today the children's playground within Travers is placed at the Northern Blvd. end of the park, not right on 34th Ave. Is this also to be considered non kid friendly?

We also had our own small hospital in which many of JH's second generation were born. More Kids! And it really is too bad that the place couldn't have had its problems resolved and remained a hospital. it might have been an asset during this pandemic. Too many Queens hospitals were shut down and we were left at the mercy of the overburdened Elmhurst General. And what happened to our hospital and it's generous sized parking lot? A public school.... but we don't like kids here?

I said this neighborhood is not Disney nor should it be. It is also not a Club Med for singles or a Billyburgh for Hipsters. It is a wonderful well planned place with all kinds of people with all kinds of needs ALL of which need to be considered. THAT is the democratic way. Add to this our original planned "Garden Within the City" has been compromised over the years and there is only so much that can be done at this point for ALL who live here.

Yes, I have read Daniel Karatzas' book  JACKSON HEIGHTS : A GARDEN IN A CITY.
Thank you for the summary of JH's past. I already knew all this.

Back to today.

The point is that the kids are utilizing 34th Ave as a summer camp type situation.

And a person would be mean-spirited indeed to prioritize their car needs over kids.



 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 26, 2020, 01:47:14 PM
Summer camp needs are not the same as permanent shut down of the Avenue.
Depending on the needs of the Summer camp Travers has space including 78th already permanently shut. If that isn't sufficient then there is an opening for dialogue. But traffic still needs to flow, cars need parking spaces and deliveries need to be made. That is not mean spirited, it's logical and practical.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 26, 2020, 03:47:34 PM
Summer camp needs are not the same as permanent shut down of the Avenue.
Depending on the needs of the Summer camp Travers has space including 78th already permanently shut. If that isn't sufficient then there is an opening for dialogue. But traffic still needs to flow, cars need parking spaces and deliveries need to be made. That is not mean spirited, it's logical and practical.

Since 34th Ave is split into two roads by the planted median...the answer might be a compromise.
As you say...we are a democracy.

One side of the planted median for cars.  And the other side for kids and pedestrians.

Now that's scrupulously fair.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on August 26, 2020, 04:55:22 PM
 As someone who is outside and on 34th Ave a lot, there isn't enough need to keep the street closed permanently. There are a number of times a day now where the use level is low. Low enough that just using the sidewalk would be adequate for exercise. When the gyms reopen, the schools reopen, the parks that are currently under construction in Travers and on 61st in Woodside and St Marks Church gardens, there will be many more places to exercise. It's funny to me that the only people who seem to be left out the conversation are those it might impact the most. I have seen a number of seniors, medical staff, delivery people and other residents mightily inconvenienced by the closing.
 
 It's one thing if its in the highly contagious time of Covid19 transmission but now that things have subsided - not gone yet- it feels like the street need not be closed as much. Certainly weekends could be an asset to the JH community for getting outdoors on those days when most of us have more free time but the rest of the time, it will be a waste of a resource for those needing to use the streets and who may be using cars, not bikes, to do the jobs, activities and errands our families need.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 26, 2020, 05:08:21 PM
Thank you itsit for a very sensible response.
abcdefghijk seems to have an axe to grind, calling for democracy, while putting their own agenda ahead of everyone else.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 26, 2020, 05:48:49 PM
Thank you itsit for a very sensible response.
abcdefghijk seems to have an axe to grind, calling for democracy, while putting their own agenda ahead of everyone else.

I see you are not happy with being scrupulously fair. Grinding your own axe perhaps?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 26, 2020, 05:59:11 PM
Thank you itsit for a very sensible response.
abcdefghijk seems to have an axe to grind, calling for democracy, while putting their own agenda ahead of everyone else.

I see you are not happy with being scrupulously fair. Grinding your own axe perhaps?

"Fair" is in your estimation only. Really I think you just enjoy the sparring. Tell me, if I had to hear this in person would you be also whining?  ;D
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Shelby2 on August 26, 2020, 06:36:55 PM
As someone who is outside and on 34th Ave a lot, there isn't enough need to keep the street closed permanently. There are a number of times a day now where the use level is low. Low enough that just using the sidewalk would be adequate for exercise. When the gyms reopen, the schools reopen, the parks that are currently under construction in Travers and on 61st in Woodside and St Marks Church gardens, there will be many more places to exercise. It's funny to me that the only people who seem to be left out the conversation are those it might impact the most. I have seen a number of seniors, medical staff, delivery people and other residents mightily inconvenienced by the closing.
 
 It's one thing if its in the highly contagious time of Covid19 transmission but now that things have subsided - not gone yet- it feels like the street need not be closed as much. Certainly weekends could be an asset to the JH community for getting outdoors on those days when most of us have more free time but the rest of the time, it will be a waste of a resource for those needing to use the streets and who may be using cars, not bikes, to do the jobs, activities and errands our families need.

I agree with your take on this.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 26, 2020, 08:45:47 PM
Thank you itsit for a very sensible response.
abcdefghijk seems to have an axe to grind, calling for democracy, while putting their own agenda ahead of everyone else.

I see you are not happy with being scrupulously fair. Grinding your own axe perhaps?


"Fair" is in your estimation only. Really I think you just enjoy the sparring. Tell me, if I had to hear this in person would you be also whining?  ;D

I would be speaking in mellifluous tones. As always.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: JHHD on August 26, 2020, 09:20:26 PM
"I have seen a number of seniors, medical staff, delivery people and other residents mightily inconvenienced by the closing."

That sounds like a bunch of nonsense. The streets are still accessible to delivery people, medical staff, and the elderly, even with a vehicle. I suppose if you are a snowflake and consider being mightily inconvenienced having to drive 5 mph for one block or possible having to get out of a vehicle to move a metal barricade over two feet then maybe. Most of the time the barricades can be passed without even moving them.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 27, 2020, 05:28:22 AM
In these strange times, it seems silly for neighbors to be attacking each other or accusing each other of being unkind or selfish or whatever.

I think one major point here is that residents never got a chance to vote on this, especially the residents most impacted by the road changes, on 34th Ave and on the nearby streets and avenues.

The justification for the original closure was always a bit fishy (why create a street-park when people are supposed to be isolating at home?). And the justifications for extending the closure also seem pretty fishy or non-existent so far.

But rather than arguing about this, we should really just have a vote. Especially taking into account the views of the residents who actually live on 34th Ave... who might even support the closure, but have apparently never been asked?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: lalochezia on August 27, 2020, 06:56:25 AM

But rather than arguing about this, we should really just have a vote. Especially taking into account the views of the residents who actually live on 34th Ave... who might even support the closure, but have apparently never been asked?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Chingwa on August 28, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
And a person would be mean-spirited indeed to prioritize their car needs over kids.
People love to hide behind kids.  They use inane emotional tactics to insinuate you have some kind of low moral character because you think their idea about permanently rearranging our neighborhood streets is dumb.  What a pathetic argument.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 28, 2020, 03:12:29 PM
And a person would be mean-spirited indeed to prioritize their car needs over kids.
People love to hide behind kids.  They use inane emotional tactics to insinuate you have some kind of low moral character because you think their idea about permanently rearranging our neighborhood streets is dumb.  What a pathetic argument.

As opposed to reactionaries who are fearful of any change...?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on August 29, 2020, 09:03:52 AM
In these strange times, it seems silly for neighbors to be attacking each other or accusing each other of being unkind or selfish or whatever.

I think one major point here is that residents never got a chance to vote on this, especially the residents most impacted by the road changes, on 34th Ave and on the nearby streets and avenues.

The justification for the original closure was always a bit fishy (why create a street-park when people are supposed to be isolating at home?). And the justifications for extending the closure also seem pretty fishy or non-existent so far.

But rather than arguing about this, we should really just have a vote. Especially taking into account the views of the residents who actually live on 34th Ave... who might even support the closure, but have apparently never been asked?

  Am hearing about efforts to put this to a VOTE!! yes. If a permanent closure of 34th Ave is found to be a good solution, so be it. But if it is determined to be an inadequate or ill advised use of the street, returning it to the previous car/full bike speed lanes would happen. The number of lawsuits that NYC has to deal with is already a huge load and a chunk of the budget that could be spent elsewhere so it's great to hear even a possibility of debate to listen to both sides on this issue. Let the decision be fair with the winning side having with data driven, reasoned arguments for all parties. Amen.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 29, 2020, 10:23:43 AM
In these strange times, it seems silly for neighbors to be attacking each other or accusing each other of being unkind or selfish or whatever.

I think one major point here is that residents never got a chance to vote on this, especially the residents most impacted by the road changes, on 34th Ave and on the nearby streets and avenues.

The justification for the original closure was always a bit fishy (why create a street-park when people are supposed to be isolating at home?). And the justifications for extending the closure also seem pretty fishy or non-existent so far.

But rather than arguing about this, we should really just have a vote. Especially taking into account the views of the residents who actually live on 34th Ave... who might even support the closure, but have apparently never been asked?

  Am hearing about efforts to put this to a VOTE!! yes. If a permanent closure of 34th Ave is found to be a good solution, so be it. But if it is determined to be an inadequate or ill advised use of the street, returning it to the previous car/full bike speed lanes would happen. The number of lawsuits that NYC has to deal with is already a huge load and a chunk of the budget that could be spent elsewhere so it's great to hear even a possibility of debate to listen to both sides on this issue. Let the decision be fair with the winning side having with data driven, reasoned arguments for all parties. Amen.

Now that sounds FAIR. And I am all for BEING FAIR & EQUITABLE. For the ENTIRE community of Jackson Heights.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 29, 2020, 06:03:21 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 29, 2020, 06:16:38 PM
::)

It's time to make Gladys Gilbert proud.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beech Court on August 29, 2020, 06:39:58 PM

BAIT

Noun: food, or some substitute, used as a lure in fishing, trapping, etc. a poisoned lure used in exterminating pests.

Verb: (used with object) to prepare (a hook or trap) with bait. to entice by deception or trickery so as to entrap or destroy:
using fake signal lights to bait the ships onto the rocks.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 30, 2020, 09:54:29 AM

BAIT

Noun: food, or some substitute, used as a lure in fishing, trapping, etc. a poisoned lure used in exterminating pests.

Verb: (used with object) to prepare (a hook or trap) with bait. to entice by deception or trickery so as to entrap or destroy:
using fake signal lights to bait the ships onto the rocks.

Not really. Imagine it being said in far more dulcet tones. Sometimes I channel Dorothea Lange.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: pipman on August 30, 2020, 07:24:40 PM
For real data, someone should evaluate the usage at different times. I loved having the open streets during the height of pandemic and in summer, but there are times when it doesn’t seem to be used and creates more inconvenience and increased traffic on other Avenues. (I live on 35th). I biked today Sunday at 4 pm and there were very few people on the Avenue between 84th and Junction.  Can see a compromise and keep the Open Street on Sunday, maybe part of Saturday. As we go back to some normalcy, don’t see a need for this to be permanent...
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: CaptainFlannel on August 30, 2020, 07:35:48 PM
Quote
The justification for the original closure was always a bit fishy (why create a street-park when people are supposed to be isolating at home?). And the justifications for extending the closure also seem pretty fishy or non-existent so far.

There was always a recognition that for mental health and fitness reasons, people need access to green space. That's why the entrance fees to state parks were waved for awhile.  Sitting at home all day with your family in less than 1000 square feet during a time of high stress is not conducive to good mental health and it sure doesn't promote physical fitness.

There was nothing fishy about the justification for the street closures that many people advocated for and support. You just disagree, which is fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions, even when they are the wrong ones. But there's a difference between disagreement and fishy justifications.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 31, 2020, 04:04:42 AM
The street was opened in May (May 14th?) when 150-200 people were still dying per day in New York.

None of New York had even started reopening yet, not even the upstate areas. Encouraging everyone to come out of isolation and have fun in some new street park made no sense at all then.

It really feels like people who wanted more green space and/or were opposed to cars took advantage of the pandemic as an opportunity to advance their agenda. Which makes sense and to be clear I want more green space too, in general.

But the justification and timing was extremely fishy and as far as I can tell, there has been no attempt to be considerate of the people who live on 34th and ask them what they actually want. Maybe they all want a street park, but nobody knows because nobody has asked.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 31, 2020, 09:55:41 AM
The street was opened in May (May 14th?) when 150-200 people were still dying per day in New York.

None of New York had even started reopening yet, not even the upstate areas. Encouraging everyone to come out of isolation and have fun in some new street park made no sense at all then.

It really feels like people who wanted more green space and/or were opposed to cars took advantage of the pandemic as an opportunity to advance their agenda. Which makes sense and to be clear I want more green space too, in general.

But the justification and timing was extremely fishy and as far as I can tell, there has been no attempt to be considerate of the people who live on 34th and ask them what they actually want. Maybe they all want a street park, but nobody knows because nobody has asked.

The idea came from European cities who implemented it to deal with folks being cooped up in their tiny apartments during COVID times. Fresh air is known to be beneficial during a pandemic. This has been a fact ever since the Spanish Flu.

Google "The origins of the Open Regimen" to do with treating Spanish Flu.





Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on August 31, 2020, 10:09:25 AM
European cities haven't exactly dealt with COVID well so using them as a role model seems questionable.

But if they did close streets there then I hope they actually asked residents first. And sought feedback after the closure to see how things were going.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on August 31, 2020, 11:27:20 AM
NY is doing better than anywhere else in the USA. And as well as many places in the world.

Something worked. Including open streets which is based on THE OPEN AIR REGIMEN

THE OPEN AIR REGIMEN basically says that the pandemic is transmitted more easily in confined spaces (like in apartment buildings/closed off rooms)  than in the open air.

The regimen was first implemented and proven in the time of the Spanish Flu. 100 years ago.

The OPEN AIR REGIMEN is why outdoor dining is allowed.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Di_11372 on September 02, 2020, 08:12:29 PM
https://jacksonheightspost.com/transportation-advocates-push-for-34th-avenue-in-jackson-heights-to-be-a-permanent-open-street
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Chingwa on September 04, 2020, 02:53:09 PM
After reading that article, the "transportation advocate" moniker sounds suspiciously like someone not advocating for transportation.  Just 'cause someone assumes a title or is uncritically granted one by a news article doesn't give any more weight to their opinions.  Fact is some people are under the valid opinion that street should be closed and others are under the valid opinion that the street should not be closed.  There are no "experts" here to defer to.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Shelby2 on September 04, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
After reading that article, the "transportation advocate" moniker sounds suspiciously like someone not advocating for transportation.  Just 'cause someone assumes a title or is uncritically granted one by a news article doesn't give any more weight to their opinions.  Fact is some people are under the valid opinion that street should be closed and others are under the valid opinion that the street should not be closed.  There are no "experts" here to defer to.

I think the article got it wrong and the correct term would be "transportation alternatives advocate" since the name of their group is actually Transportation Alternatives.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Ms. Jackson on September 04, 2020, 03:30:48 PM
"He said its success is largely due to the dedicated residents who care for what has become an ad-hoc linear park. The entire community comes together to make sure the space works and is a safe place for neighborhood kids to play, Restrepo said."

As much as I advocate for more open space in our neighborhood and am one of the folks using the street everyday for walks, I think this article is somewhat misleading. The above quote from the article is a broad statement making it seem like there is some active work going into making 34th Street cleaner and safer. Besides JHBG and residents maintaining the median gardens, the street is just as filthy (perhaps more) and just as safe as the rest in the neighborhood. I have seen arguments between pedestrians and drivers and have dodged my fair share of weaving scooters, bicycles, uni-scooters, skateboards, and the like, not to mention non-local drivers too lazy to go an extra block.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: CaptainFlannel on September 05, 2020, 07:44:45 AM
Quote
The above quote from the article is a broad statement making it seem like there is some active work going into making 34th Street cleaner and safer. Besides JHBG and residents maintaining the median gardens...

Well, that is active work. JHBG organizing weekly clean ups (as well as the JH Covid Care Network) as well as organizing the set up and take down of the barriers is active work in to making 34th Ave cleaner and safer.

I volunteered to help with the barriers months ago, but the person doing the organizing never got back to me. It's something I've noticed a lot of in the last six months. There's a call for volunteers, I volunteers, and never hear back, which makes me think these efforts are being handled by a small group of people. There's something to be said for the difficulty and complexity of managing a large group of volunteers so I can understand tha, but at the same time we're now almost 4 months in to Open Streets being the norm. I would think some of the volunteers might need a break.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Ms. Jackson on September 06, 2020, 09:36:34 AM
Thanks, Captain. It's nice to know about those other efforts. I'm sorry to hear their volunteer coordination leaves a bit to be desired.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Ms. Jackson on September 17, 2020, 08:37:58 AM
Queens Pol Makes It Official: Demands 34th Avenue Open Street Be Made Permanent

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/09/14/queens-pol-makes-it-official-demands-34th-avenue-open-street-be-made-permanent/?fbclid=IwAR3gAl7K07BLzGABf1G1Ox9pOvLjVCvg-NJvFWr3rAphfI3f_ASW9oHEXrQ (https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/09/14/queens-pol-makes-it-official-demands-34th-avenue-open-street-be-made-permanent/?fbclid=IwAR3gAl7K07BLzGABf1G1Ox9pOvLjVCvg-NJvFWr3rAphfI3f_ASW9oHEXrQ)

A Queens council member has jumped on the popular effort to turn the city’s best open street into a “permanent public space for the community” — the first salvo in a debate that will likely grow to include other neighborhoods that don’t want to lose their well-used gathering places once the COVID-19 pandemic subsides.

In calling for permanence, Council Member Danny Dromm cited “overwhelming positive response” from residents of Jackson Heights and Corona, whose neighborhood is second-to-last in per capita open space. He also cited the “wonderful impact” the open street between 69th Street and Junction Boulevard has had.

“Children from the surrounding cramped apartments safely propel their scooters down the street,” he wrote. “A small group takes a salsa dance lesson in the open. Two older women pull out lawn chairs and bask in the sun.”

The benefits go far beyond those three constituencies. Whether by kismet or design, the de Blasio administration’s 34th Avenue open street has long been described as the best one in the city — and several factors make it so: It runs entirely through a residential neighborhood with very little open space; it is parallel to the much busier Northern Boulevard, which provides drivers with a better route than a residential street; it has the strong support of volunteers who put out barricades every morning and remove them at night; it is very widely used by pedestrians, which deters drivers from using the roadway for local trips.

Dromm’s letter was partly responding to a massive effort to focus attention on this particular open street. Earlier this summer, Streetsblog covered the initial failure of the project, which succumbed to the weight of overpolicing by the NYPD, only to become a uniquely popular space after cops stood down.

Next, Streetfilms got both Dromm and State Senator Jessica Ramos to commit to the permanent car-free proposal. And Transportation Alternatives started a petition drive shortly thereafter — one that has already garnered 1,236 signatures (it’s online if you want to sign it). People who have volunteered to gather petitions have noticed how eager residents are to sign.

“Being out on the street asking my neighbors to sign the petition is the best volunteer gig I’ve ever had,” said Angela Stach, who lives in Jackson Heights and has been collecting signatures for several weeks. “There is literally no need to explain why the city needs to make this open street permanent — because it’s completely self-evident. It has brought joy to our neighborhood during a very traumatic time, especially for the kids. And people really want to hold on to that. It’s almost surreal how easy it is to have these conversations with neighbors who have never before considered that the way in which cars monopolize public space is not the ‘natural’ order of things.”

Stach believes that unlike other public space battles in her neighborhood, this one will be easier to win because people can see the benefits, rather than have to imagine them, as in the case of a new bike lane or residential loading zone that hasn’t been created yet.

“Having experienced how the open street has transformed our everyday lives has dramatically broadened the constituency for challenging the dominance of cars in our community,” she said.

One of the main organizers of the volunteer effort, Jim Burke, added that the community involvement was the key.

“Many of us came together to demand open streets and then to open and close them together each morning and each evening,” he said. “We were hungry for connections, for exercise, for space and fresh air. Thirty-fourth Avenue enables all of that. So many of our neighbors plant the medians, clean the avenue and make sure drivers respect our open streets.”

That’s not to say Jackson Heights and Corona residents are all holding their hands in a Kumbaya moment for a car-free roadway. The neighborhood is home to many car owners who have expressed frustration to petitioning volunteers and on a neighborhood Facebook page about how difficult it is for them to find free storage for their private vehicles.

Others point out that there are many schools on the strip — then make the counter-intuitive point that a car-free street is somehow more dangerous for the school-age pedestrian commuters.

“There are many schools on 34th Avenue, therefore weekdays, it should not be a permanent walk way,” wrote Barbara Goldman. “Also, it makes it difficult for teachers to find parking.”

Another resident, who gave the name Nina Starz, gave the Marie Antoinette response: Let them move to the suburbs!

“I’m sorry, I understand that people want outdoor areas, but if that’s the case consider moving out of the city,” she wrote. “You have so many sidewalks to walk your little hearts away, so it is not fair to limit traffic for cars when you have much space to walk.”

Many residents responded back that sidewalks represent a tiny fraction of the neighborhood’s public space — and are certainly no replacement for true open space in a neighborhood with but one central gathering place, the small Travers Park.

“We are so grateful for the open road!” wrote Rebecca Mehan. “With two young kids, it is difficult to stay inside all day. The open road gives us a safe place to walk/run/scoot/bike outside without needing to leave the neighborhood. Moreover, it connects us with our community . It is so uplifting to see and move with all of our neighbors. We will use it in the heat, rain, and snow. I hope it can remain open to pedestrians long past our current situation.”

Meanwhile, the debate over 34th Avenue will likely grow to include other neighborhoods. In Inwood, for example, a local mom got 600 signatures on her petition to restore Margaret Corbin Drive to car-free status after the city unceremoniously ended the open-street program there in August. And members of Community Boards 2 and 4, which cover adjoining sections of the West Side and Lower Manhattan, have long advocated for more streets to be made off limits to cars.

Meanwhile, several groups are working on petitions calling for the open streets on Avenue B in Manhattan and Berry Street in Brooklyn to be permanently car-free.

The Meatpacking Business Improvement District showed off what such a street could look like this weekend — to rapturous support from residents, visitors and local businesses, as Streetsblog reported.

The Department of Transportation did not respond directly to Dromm’s letter, but told Streetsblog in an anodyne statement, “We are excited about the success of the open street, and we look forward to working with the community on the future of 34th Avenue.”



Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on September 17, 2020, 12:16:58 PM
   It would be great if this was a topic for debate.

  And if the data from when the streets is heavily used to when it is little used, which is a surprisingly large amount of the day, would be a factor. Some residents are blissfully happy with the prospect of a continued Open Streets program here on 34th Ave. and you can see the happiness on their faces and others not so much. Issues of community, getting some exercise and maintaining social distance vs. safety issues, electric bikes, trash collection, new rat sites on the median and in some instances, partying and sleeping on the median overnight, make others wary. What about phases of usage? Some discussion for all parties. Could it be that litigation is what determines this? Is there a way to find out who has sued the DOT or NYParks over the closure or accidents on 34th Ave.?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on September 17, 2020, 12:48:08 PM
   It would be great if this was a topic for debate.

  And if the data from when the streets is heavily used to when it is little used, which is a surprisingly large amount of the day, would be a factor. Some residents are blissfully happy with the prospect of a continued Open Streets program here on 34th Ave. and you can see the happiness on their faces and others not so much. Issues of community, getting some exercise and maintaining social distance vs. safety issues, electric bikes, trash collection, new rat sites on the median and in some instances, partying and sleeping on the median overnight, make others wary. What about phases of usage? Some discussion for all parties. Could it be that litigation is what determines this? Is there a way to find out who has sued the DOT or NYParks over the closure or accidents on 34th Ave.?

The topic is (and has been) open for debate.

Many folks in the neighborhood are hoping 34th Ave stays open for pedestrians.

Others aren't.

As in all good democracies, the majority will prevail.



Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on September 17, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
The way that the street was initially closed without any debate or consultation has created the perception that the topic was not open to debate.

And the way that some people are asking for the street to remain closed indefinitely but still without any consideration or consultation with the people who are negatively affected by the closure is just making things worse.

I actually think having an open street is a pretty cool idea but the way this has been done so far makes me very distrustful of some of the open street campaigners. They seem very selfish to me.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Beherenow on September 18, 2020, 11:36:47 AM
35th ave should be enforce to no double park during certain hours or no parking during certain hours to speed up the flow. Every time I see a UPS, Fedex or FreshDirect or any other truck double park the whole traffic is backed up.

That's true, but the pandemic created a big demand for home deliveries and that's a habit that might not change. I would not want to deprive people of the ability to get medicines, medical supplies, clothes and other things from UPS, Fedex or Amazon, and that means trucks will need to double-park.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: theplanesland on September 20, 2020, 08:17:53 AM
35th ave should be enforce to no double park during certain hours or no parking during certain hours to speed up the flow. Every time I see a UPS, Fedex or FreshDirect or any other truck double park the whole traffic is backed up.

That's true, but the pandemic created a big demand for home deliveries and that's a habit that might not change. I would not want to deprive people of the ability to get medicines, medical supplies, clothes and other things from UPS, Fedex or Amazon, and that means trucks will need to double-park.

I'd like to point out that the open street hasn't created a problem with deliveries on 34th Avenue itself. I frequently see UPS or Amazon trucks either slowly moving onto blocks of 34th to make deliveries, or parking at intersections and then using handtrucks to deliver to the blocks on either side. They don't seem to need 34th as a through street to serve the residents on that avenue.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: BEB on September 20, 2020, 10:16:21 AM
I hear a lot of discussion about how double parked cars need to be better managed across the board in Jackson Heights. Clearly this has been a long standing issue that predates 34th Ave being closed. 

Recently I noticed a sign for a neighborhood loading zone. It was a large two or three car parking space on 74th St somewhere between 37th Ave and 31st Ave that was designated to ease double parking. More here: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/nlz.shtml This space was on a residential block nowhere near any businesses. I believe it was for a window of time like 6am to 6pm maybe? Why can we not have more of these throughout the neighborhood?

And to the person who called open street campaigners "selfish," I would counter that people who own and park their cars for free on these streets are the selfish ones. Why does a group of individual drivers feel entitled to the rights of that space, over an entire community benefiting from it being open? 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: cultartist on September 20, 2020, 11:42:32 AM
I agree emphatically with those last two posts.  Delivery trucks safely and legally park in the intersection, an even better solution than the usual double parking on busy streets.  The very few parking spaces are also easily accessed by locals who choose to seek them out.  And the traffic on Northern and 35th Avenues hasn't been all that bad and might reduce the non-locals who choose to use our neighborhood as a major thoroughfare.   

The tradeoff for a negligible and much overstated inconvenience on all three fronts is that parents can take their kids for safe walks and bicycle rides, safe from both cars and unsafe and potentially unhealthy proximity to others.  It means fresh air, exercise, mental health, safety and community during a time when we're cooped up and those qualities are desperately needed in ways we could have never imagined.

Doesn't really seem like an unfair tradeoff at all.  I sincerely hope that our locally elected officials will keep 34th Avenue safe, open, regulated and allow it to continue to be the immeasurable gift to the neighborhood that it has been this past summer.   We desperately need and deserve it.   
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: CaptainFlannel on September 20, 2020, 12:21:25 PM
Quote
The way that the street was initially closed without any debate or consultation has created the perception that the topic was not open to debate.

We don't live in a pure democracy. We live in a representative democracy. If you don't like that the Avenue is shut down, you could always vote against your local representatives that were/are in favor of it. Mount a phone campaign to their local offices so people like you have their voices heard.  If you don't like the program, and didn't like it back in March and April when this discussion was happening, perhaps it's worth considering either that your side didn't have as big a voice or it's not as big as you imagine to be.

There absolutely was a process - one involving a pilot program in march, which was initially opposed by the mayor. People spoke up and advocated to their local representatives at the city and state level that it was a good idea and organized local community groups to manage the closed street. Those folks prevailed. People who didn't like it, didn't. Maybe there's some insight to be drawn from that about the relative support your position has in the neighborhood.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: temujin on September 23, 2020, 12:33:21 PM
35th ave should be enforce to no double park during certain hours or no parking during certain hours to speed up the flow. Every time I see a UPS, Fedex or FreshDirect or any other truck double park the whole traffic is backed up.

That's true, but the pandemic created a big demand for home deliveries and that's a habit that might not change. I would not want to deprive people of the ability to get medicines, medical supplies, clothes and other things from UPS, Fedex or Amazon, and that means trucks will need to double-park.

Right, if we plan to continue to have 34th Ave close, shouldn't we plan this out better, instead just close and not care about other impacts. I am not against them, I am saying we should do something to make it better for everyone, especially those complaint about closure. Maybe something similar to Zipcar spot, section some spot off on few street for standing delivery vehicle only. It seem like most of the congestion occurs 74 to mid 80s, so maybe we restrict no parking on one side during certain hours, so similar to Northern where no parking during rush hour.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on September 23, 2020, 02:22:29 PM
   With so few people actually using the 34th Ave Open Street in many hours of the day, even on some of the nicer days, closing the street from 8am- 8pm seems like a big ask from the city and not exactly strategic. When it's crowded, it's busy but there are many hours of the day now when it's super quiet and the sidewalks are even empty.
  Google data or other analytics will be able to show when the need or desire to use the street is highest and I would go for those hours which might just be some of the weekend, rather than ask for the 12hour, all volunteer set up that is currently in use. It's just not working for enough people and it would be great to pivot towards getting a community center that is year round and has programs for youth, seniors and the whole population. Being in the street has helped during the pandemic but going forward we need a more significant social space.
 Those that love all of it have been the most vocal but there are plenty of others who see big problems with the current state of things on 34th Ave. Discuss the electric bikes, lighting for when it's dark out, having a cleanup crew, use city workers to help with the barriers(lots are missing) and ask the community for ways to proceed. Let's have a democratic process here.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: BEB on September 23, 2020, 03:25:56 PM
So two things.

temujin, This program you describe already exists here and elsewhere in the city, though only on one JH block so far (74th St from 37th Ave to 31st Ave) at different intervals. I did an earlier post about this in this thread, but here's the link to the neighborhood loading zones program. Why not add more of these? https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/nlz.shtml

Secondly, 34th Ave and JH is highlighted in this NYT story checking in about where we are as a city at the six month mark of the Covid pandemic.  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/nyregion/new-york-city-coronavirus-six-months.html
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Miss Chatelaine on September 23, 2020, 04:14:08 PM
   With so few people actually using the 34th Ave Open Street in many hours of the day, even on some of the nicer days, closing the street from 8am- 8pm seems like a big ask from the city and not exactly strategic. When it's crowded, it's busy but there are many hours of the day now when it's super quiet and the sidewalks are even empty.
  Google data or other analytics will be able to show when the need or desire to use the street is highest and I would go for those hours which might just be some of the weekend, rather than ask for the 12hour, all volunteer set up that is currently in use. It's just not working for enough people and it would be great to pivot towards getting a community center that is year round and has programs for youth,

Which hours are the quietest? I never go above 82nd Street so don’t know how busy the upper portion gets, but below that it usually seems well-used to me even in the middle of the day on a weekday (though not as busy as mornings and evenings, which gets crowded.)  I’d be happy to schedule my use for when the fewest people are on there to spread out the usage more.

A community center would be fantastic, but doesn’t address the need for open outdoor space.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: theplanesland on September 25, 2020, 01:12:38 PM
I was out on the avenue around 10am today, a weekday. There were many people strolling, bikers using the bike lanes, and elderly people sitting on the curbs. Two white work vans (plumbers or construction guys) turned a corner slowly onto the avenue and parked where they needed to, to get work done. A woman turned and pulled into a parking space. Several bikers went by. It was a perfect example of shared, considerate use.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on September 25, 2020, 05:37:02 PM
I was out on the avenue around 10am today, a weekday. There were many people strolling, bikers using the bike lanes, and elderly people sitting on the curbs. Two white work vans (plumbers or construction guys) turned a corner slowly onto the avenue and parked where they needed to, to get work done. A woman turned and pulled into a parking space. Several bikers went by. It was a perfect example of shared, considerate use.

Totally agree. The closed street is like an example for the world when it comes to neighborhood harmony.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: jh35 on September 25, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
I was out on the avenue around 10am today, a weekday. There were many people strolling, bikers using the bike lanes, and elderly people sitting on the curbs. Two white work vans (plumbers or construction guys) turned a corner slowly onto the avenue and parked where they needed to, to get work done. A woman turned and pulled into a parking space. Several bikers went by. It was a perfect example of shared, considerate use.

Totally agree. The closed street is like an example for the world when it comes to neighborhood harmony.

This is all "fine and dandy" as they used to say, but what plans have been made for when the schools on that avenue are open.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: lalochezia on September 25, 2020, 06:06:11 PM
Kids & parents have legs.

 For those with demonstrable mobility issues, exceptions can be made. Everyone else should suck it up and walk.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on October 06, 2020, 03:24:54 PM
 People should be vigilant here as this idea seems to be steamrolling through without so much as a Town Hall or any kind of vote. Think Mitch McConnell and the Supreme Court nominee.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on October 06, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
People should be vigilant here as this idea seems to be steamrolling through without so much as a Town Hall or any kind of vote. Think Mitch McConnell and the Supreme Court nominee.

More like in a good democracy, the majority rules.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: dssjh on October 06, 2020, 04:40:47 PM
although, as has been mentioned many times in these forums, we do not live in a pure democracy  (for better and - mostly - worse).
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on October 06, 2020, 07:16:59 PM
I am well aware of our type of democracy. ("good democracy" was irony)

I would say that the huge avalanche of emails and calls and signatures from folks in the neighborhood who are for the Open Street of 34th Ave have swayed the opinion of reps.

Almost a good democracy. :^)

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: the80s on October 14, 2020, 11:45:19 AM
Does anyone know what the latest is on this? Perhaps I missed it somewhere in this thread.

But when is 34th Avenue scheduled to re-open to car traffic? Or has the closure been extended indefinitely? I know there was a petition, but not sure what happened with that.

I didn't know where to get the latest concrete info on this. Thanks in advance for any info!
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: llinaseduardo on October 18, 2020, 07:02:00 PM
I do think that for a decision to make sense it has to be thought out and studied.
As an Urban Designer and neighbor or JH I think it is very important to increase the open public spaces
that prioritize de pedestrians and not cars. But this does not mean that transportation should be integrated or thought about.
It should be an integrated planning process without a doubt.  With that said Parking in the streets have to be
thought about as well as we have seen an increase in delivery services that should have designated areas so they don't block avenues or streets.
I have seen many Amazon, Fedex, UPS and USPS trucks block a whole street while ambulances or buses need to go through.
The streets should not prioritize single user transportation. It should prioritize the community, its services and our neighborhood
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on October 23, 2020, 08:15:44 AM
 Is there going to be a hearing on this for all of Jackson Heights to weigh in on? Funny that they wouldn't wait for a non-pandemic time to evaluate this one.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: toddg on October 23, 2020, 11:03:33 AM
Big news... the city will keep 34th Avenue "Open" (for community use) while it evaluates a longer-term strategy...

JH Post
DOT to Develop ‘Long-Term’ Plan for 34th Avenue Open Street in Jackson Heights
https://jacksonheightspost.com/dot-to-develop-long-term-plan-for-34th-avenue-open-street-in-jackson-heights
Oct. 23, 2020 By Allie Griffin

The Department of Transportation’s Open Streets program will be coming to an end this month — although not for a stretch on 34th Avenue deemed an Open Streets success.

The city will keep the 34th Avenue Open Street going as the DOT looks into a plan for its “long-term” transformation. Residents and local elected officials have called for the stretch to be made an Open Street on a permanent basis.

“The 34th Avenue Open Street will not end on Oct. 31st,” DOT spokesperson Brian Zumhagen said, as the agency looks into a long-term plan.

(follow link for complete article)
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: toddg on October 23, 2020, 11:08:07 AM
Also... can't believe I missed this yesterday...

Streetsblog EXCLUSIVE: DOT Will Take the Lead on Future of 34th Avenue as a ‘Permanent’ Open Street (https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/10/22/exclusive-dot-will-take-the-lead-on-making-34th-avenue-a-permanent-open-street/)
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on October 23, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
This is fantastic news.

And the sheer numbers who are pro the opening of 34th Ave permanently for pedestrians etc is wonderful.   
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Ms. Jackson on October 23, 2020, 09:09:38 PM
Walked it tonight from 5p -6p. It was incredible to see the amount of folks safely enjoying it, with children's events, art displays, and other things on a few blocks and Travers Park.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on October 24, 2020, 11:42:30 AM
   It's so great the entire avenue is being seen as having one desire which is to be an Open Street. Jackson Heights as monolith! Everyone is in favor, no matter if they live on 70th street or 90th street or 114th street, if it gets extended. No matter if they are in an apt, home, have a business or garage on the open street. This is unanimous. We all want the same thing, an open street all the time...the answer to all of our prayers, 365 days a year! Let other neighborhoods have a community space with full services. We'll take an open street. It's a win people!!! No vote needed. No need to ask all residents, is there?
 
 Democracy in action.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: kscher on October 24, 2020, 11:52:56 AM
What about Daylight Savings?  Are people going to have art /zumba/yoga on a cold January night?   Any talk of the hours being adjusted?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on October 24, 2020, 12:56:19 PM
   It's so great the entire avenue is being seen as having one desire which is to be an Open Street. Jackson Heights as monolith! Everyone is in favor, no matter if they live on 70th street or 90th street or 114th street, if it gets extended. No matter if they are in an apt, home, have a business or garage on the open street. This is unanimous. We all want the same thing, an open street all the time...the answer to all of our prayers, 365 days a year! Let other neighborhoods have a community space with full services. We'll take an open street. It's a win people!!! No vote needed. No need to ask all residents, is there?
 
 Democracy in action.

Wait. Doesn't Democracy work by everyone getting a say? And then the majority rules. The majority has spoken in this case. It is Democracy in action.  Democracy has prevailed!

The majority's wishes have been accepted over a dissenting minority.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: dssjh on October 24, 2020, 02:04:43 PM
What about Daylight Savings?  Are people going to have art /zumba/yoga on a cold January night?   Any talk of the hours being adjusted?

all of the scheduled classes i've seen mentioned have been mornings and early afternoons.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: kscher on October 24, 2020, 04:43:27 PM
What about Daylight Savings?  Are people going to have art /zumba/yoga on a cold January night?   Any talk of the hours being adjusted?

all of the scheduled classes i've seen mentioned have been mornings and early afternoons.

Exactly my point - do we need the street open at 7:30 pm on a cold January Monday?  Can we adjust hours to close at sundown during the winter months?
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: pipman on October 24, 2020, 06:30:41 PM
I wouldn't say everyone wants this!  i enjoy using the open streets, but it is often NOT crowded and it does create congestion on other streets certain times of the day.  Hopefully DOT does a thorough review along with our community leaders.  Traffic violations with double parking, horn honking, the increase in delivery trucks--all are impacting quality of life and the closure of 34th Avenue is making it worse (not better).  As winter approaches, and people are getting on with school and work, not sure if having the street closed every day makes the most sense...perhaps weekends is a better compromise. 
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: pgoat on October 27, 2020, 12:12:26 PM
Is there going to be a hearing on this for all of Jackson Heights to weigh in on? Funny that they wouldn't wait for a non-pandemic time to evaluate this one.

Open Streets will be one of several items on the agenda when Community Board 3 holds a Traffic and Transportation Committee Meeting via Teleconference on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:30pm.

To join the meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone:
https://www.gotomeet.me/Que.../qcb3_trafficandtransportation
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: itsit on October 27, 2020, 06:10:30 PM
Is there going to be a hearing on this for all of Jackson Heights to weigh in on? Funny that they wouldn't wait for a non-pandemic time to evaluate this one.

Open Streets will be one of several items on the agenda when Community Board 3 holds a Traffic and Transportation Committee Meeting via Teleconference on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:30pm.

 Is this real? That date is tomorrow...is this legal or more importantly, fair. I am concerned that the large Bengali/Desi/Nepalise communities in the lower 70's are not in the loop here. Not good work on behalf of our electeds if that is true. I would anticipate some serious backlash if 73rd/74th sts along with 35th and 37th Aves. are jammed up all winter while traffic (school buses, medical transport,etc) can't move because someone does't want to use the sidewalk on 34th Ave for a walk.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: dssjh on October 27, 2020, 06:54:29 PM
i believe that holding the meeting is legal, as the committee meets on a regular basis. i also believe that the meeting has been on the board's calendar for a full month (if not longer -- i tend to look at the calendar at the first of the month). i also don't see how you've figured the shopping stretch of 73rd and 74th -- nowhere near 34th avenue -- into your argument, which seems to be growing more and more strident with each passing day.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: r on October 28, 2020, 08:08:02 AM
nowhere near 34th avenue

73rd and 74th both intersect 34th avenue.

The traffic has definitely gotten worse recently, and all along 35th too, especially from 69th to around 77th.

If the open street is made "permanent" it will be interesting to see how long it actually lasts. It is a shame this has been pushed through in such an obnoxious and inconsiderate way, because with more community consultation and thoughtfulness it might have had a better chance of being sustainable. It would be cool to have more "green space" in Jackson Heights, but not like this.
Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: abcdefghijk on October 28, 2020, 08:36:31 AM
nowhere near 34th avenue

73rd and 74th both intersect 34th avenue.

The traffic has definitely gotten worse recently, and all along 35th too, especially from 69th to around 77th.

If the open street is made "permanent" it will be interesting to see how long it actually lasts. It is a shame this has been pushed through in such an obnoxious and inconsiderate way, because with more community consultation and thoughtfulness it might have had a better chance of being sustainable. It would be cool to have more "green space" in Jackson Heights, but not like this.

Clearly, the majority who live in Jackson Heights disagree with you. We want the street open.

I see it is difficult to be in a minority and leads to bitterness.

Title: Re: 34th Avenue street closure permanently (NOT)
Post by: Ms. Jackson on October 28, 2020, 09:32:17 AM
I don't follow how this is being "pushed" through. The City opened the street, people liked it, voiced the desire to make it more permanent, the City is considering it, offering ways for feedback...

Is it the best urban planning? Best transportation planning? Probably not. But, what is good planning in NYC? What are the best planned environments in NYC? [rhetorical]