Author Topic: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets  (Read 13902 times)

Offline ShinjukuBaby

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #165 on: September 08, 2021, 05:30:24 AM »
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35th Ave was flooded on Thursday yet cars had to re-route to the already over-crowded 37th Ave and Northern Blvd.

We had a very major storm that resulted in a Federal disaster designation in the area.  In the wake of the storm, we had increased traffic on two roads on the following day.  I have a hard time seeing that as a significant problem with the 34th Ave Open Street.

 

Offline CaptainFlannel

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #166 on: September 08, 2021, 06:41:35 AM »
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This street is empty during the week when people should be working.

I think this falls under the hope that "if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it." Unfortunately, a visit to 34 OS at any time beyond times when it's pouring rain or 1 pm and 98 degrees out will demonstrate this to be a false assertion. 8 am - 11 am, the street is being used by a lot of people. Even during the summer heat waves. 4-8 pm, the street is being used. Usage is lighter mid-day, no doubt. But empty? It wasn't even empty during the winter.

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35th Ave was flooded on Thursday
Where was 35th Avenue flooded?

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Some people have pointed out that residents of 34th Ave are enjoying the Open Streets and have seen their property values increase because of this program.

And some have argued that property values are down *because* of 34th Avenue OS. Until someone produces a report that analyzes closing prices on apartments on 34th Avenue in comparison to real estate values of properties not directly on an OS - which btw is publicly available information, you just need someone with the time awareness of bias to do it - any arguments about property value certainly seem to be cherry picking data that supports the arguers bias.

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Many thanks to the volunteers for their efforts, but this needs to be funded and staffed if it's too be fair to all.

Which is why people should be advocating for DoT to produce its plan for the design of the OS (which was supposed to come in June, but was pushed back in to fall, seemingly thanks in part to the Compromisers working folks up about OS by misrepresenting a proposal by an advocacy group to reduce street parking by 25% across the city as an actual plan by the city to remove parking on 34th Avenue), participating in the visioning sessions and other public forums about 34 OS, and pushing the city to fund the program. Best in my opinion would be a design that doesn't rely on barricades that must be moved in and out of place twice a day or for drivers to have to move them. Relying on the volunteers is unsustainable in the long run, and its certainly time for the city agency in charge of Open Streets to come up with a solution.

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All JH residents opinions count here but those who are profoundly impacted deserve a little more weight with their opinions in my view.

There was a primary election recently for City Council. Most of the candidates came out in favor of 34 Ave OS, but Andy Chen was actively courting the anti-OS/Compromise crowd. Most of the blocks on 34th Avenue went for Shekar Krishnan, who supports turning 34 Ave in to a linear park. Since the city council member for the district has a huge impact on OS, that seems like the time 34th Avenue residents if they dislike OS as much as some people like to insist they do, could have made that clear. There's a general election coming up soon. Residents of 34th Avenue who dislike OS can vote for the libertarian.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 06:48:54 AM by CaptainFlannel »

Offline JHResident

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #167 on: September 08, 2021, 12:08:28 PM »
Too much to quote and edit, Captain Flannel, but 35th Avenue was flooded between 69th and 65th Streets by the BQE. In the morning it was impassable, and in the afternoon only the bravest (or most foolish) of drivers attempted to get through. Nice job formatting, BTW.

Offline JHResident

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2021, 12:20:41 PM »
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This street is empty during the week when people should be working.

I think this falls under the hope that "if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it." Unfortunately, a visit to 34 OS at any time beyond times when it's pouring rain or 1 pm and 98 degrees out will demonstrate this to be a false assertion. 8 am - 11 am, the street is being used by a lot of people. Even during the summer heat waves. 4-8 pm, the street is being used. Usage is lighter mid-day, no doubt. But empty? It wasn't even empty during the winter.
I walk between 78th and 71st most days and rarely see more than ten to twelve people walking on 34th Ave during that walk. But rather than argue, since most people see what they want to see, the traffic department should be able to provide a usage survey of perhaps a one week period so that real data can be discussed. While the street may be heavily used in the morning, I typically see many more delivery people using the street than any other type of user. YMMV.

Offline itsit

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #169 on: September 08, 2021, 12:50:08 PM »

I walk between 78th and 71st most days and rarely see more than ten to twelve people walking on 34th Ave during that walk. But rather than argue, since most people see what they want to see, the traffic department should be able to provide a usage survey of perhaps a one week period so that real data can be discussed. While the street may be heavily used in the morning, I typically see many more delivery people using the street than any other type of user. YMMV.
[/quote]
Thanks JHResident!

  Those of us who have more contact with 34th Ave at different times of days and different days of the week, know that usage is often low. PLEASE, please DOT, collect data through technology. It will give you the accurate reading of when it's being used and most importantly in my opinion, when it
is not. The residents of 34th ave and the heavily impacted surrounding area deserve better treatment when it comes to the accuracy of how much 34th Ave is used now. And please collect data for a few months that have varied weather and see what the aggregate use is before going forward.
Start slow and build where need is warranted and avoid the blanket treatment with closures that we are now subjected to. PLEASE!

Offline CaptainFlannel

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #170 on: September 08, 2021, 02:46:42 PM »
^I'm out on 34th Avenue multiple times a day - morning, afternoon, evenings. I do a little data collection most times I'm out there.  I sit down on a particularly shady block, and count the number of people that cross the crosswalk over the course of a minute. The smallest number of people I've counted has been 5. The largest was 24. Even on the days when it's been raining heavily out (looking at you Memorial Day weekend), there were people on the avenue.

It's fine to disagree about what constitutes high or low usage, but it's disingenuous to say no one is on it most of the time. Foot traffic, just like car traffic ebbs and flows. There's very little traffic on 35th Avenue right now, but it would be incorrect to say there is no car traffic on it.

Also, DoT does seem to be responsive to usage. Sunnyside's Open Street, which didn't seem to work, is being turned in to a bike blvd. 34 Avenue OS got planters and a few employees from the city. All signs point to DoT thinking it gets enough foot traffic to warrant further investment, at least for now. It will be interesting to see what they come up with they unveil their plan come fall.

Offline itsit

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #171 on: September 09, 2021, 07:42:35 AM »
 Captain Flannel, with all due respect, in this age of technology it makes much more sense to use the available tools to accurately record the use of 34th Ave. Anecdotal accounts are passionate as noted here on this forum but those of us who have more to do with the avenue 24/7 know what we see also. Let's let the truth be determined in a bipartisan way with cameras recording and having the data analyzed and charted showing once and for all, the actual use of 34th Ave now.
   Those most affected need to have others understand the full story on this very divisive issue here in Jackson Heights!Also those planters blocking access to the fire hydrants on a street where a massive fire happened earlier this year are unbelievable idiotic to residents on the avenue whose lives would be at stake should there be a need to use the hydrants quickly. WHY?

Offline opalis141

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #172 on: September 09, 2021, 07:53:41 AM »
Itsit there are lot of legal and privacy considerations to take into account for the methodology you are suggesting that would actually make a count using recorded video tricky. The method that CaptainFlannel just outlined is actually what is used for a lot of survey data (think MTA train usage collection). Folks take a a manual count over a given period of time -- average and multiply it out.

For what it is worth, I live on 34th ave, and am a car owner in the neighborhood. I am supportive of the open streets program and, anecdotally, see the open streets being used pretty continuously by where I live. I enjoy that there is now space for residents to use, and also don't find it to be a hindrance with my car -- as long as (careful and slow!) parking is allowed to remain, I am happy :) I haven't encountered any noise issues -- the biggest issue I have encountered are speeding electric bikes/scooters.

Offline itsit

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #173 on: September 09, 2021, 08:27:02 AM »
 Opalis, do you think that there aren't already many cameras recording the street for security issues among other things? We know this to be true and although we are not like London or some cities in China with full recordings going on all times of day, there is something objective gained here by data analysis. What populations are best served by the Open Streets and at what times?

 And which populations are adversely affected and at what times? And to my other point, what fire and safety issues are in need of an official review with this closure? To my knowledge, none of this has been done and there are frustrated residents here on 34th ave among those in favor of a full and comprehensive study. Both sides deserve a voice, don't you think? And what is the comprehensive impact on the neighborhood which in my opinion is three different areas of JH - very dense 82nd- Junction, medium density 76th to 82nd and lower density 75th to 69th street.
My observations are from the lower density area and trust me, they are real and I could verify them easily. It's a mystery why the one size fits all policy is continually being applied to this Open Street situation which is the longest one in the city and open the most hours! It's out of scale with the community needs imho. Let the data begin!

Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #174 on: September 09, 2021, 09:22:01 AM »
Opalis, do you think that there aren't already many cameras recording the street for security issues among other things? We know this to be true and although we are not like London or some cities in China with full recordings going on all times of day, there is something objective gained here by data analysis. What populations are best served by the Open Streets and at what times?

 And which populations are adversely affected and at what times? And to my other point, what fire and safety issues are in need of an official review with this closure? To my knowledge, none of this has been done and there are frustrated residents here on 34th ave among those in favor of a full and comprehensive study. Both sides deserve a voice, don't you think? And what is the comprehensive impact on the neighborhood which in my opinion is three different areas of JH - very dense 82nd- Junction, medium density 76th to 82nd and lower density 75th to 69th street.
My observations are from the lower density area and trust me, they are real and I could verify them easily. It's a mystery why the one size fits all policy is continually being applied to this Open Street situation which is the longest one in the city and open the most hours! It's out of scale with the community needs imho. Let the data begin!

Itsit, what is your real agenda? Is it car-related? Please be honest.

It appears to me, that's it's pro-car vs no-car (or not placing car needs first) ...and that is the basis of all these divisions concerning 34th Ave. 

Offline itsit

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #175 on: September 09, 2021, 01:25:47 PM »
 My agenda, if I have to have one, is this. Look at Diversity Plaza? Is it not one of the worst public spaces made with public monies in recent memory? As someone who travels the city and especially the boroughs, it seems like a travesty that Diversity Plaza looks and functions as it does. The planning was poor, and it was commandeered by a smallish group that tailored it to their agenda.
I see something similar here. A vocal group who loves Open Streets is commandeering the planning. That is why I am in favor of data. Cars are not my issue and if there was one major thing that seems forgotten, it's the less abled and senior communities in JH who need more access to 34th Ave as well as the multi family residences that are in the lower numbers who absolutely use their cars for grandma and the infants to travel. Also it has been mentioned that 34th Ave has many schools, not really businesses. Many of the teachers who need to be at school before 8:00 are driving. Where are they parking? What provisions have the schools made for their employees who drive to be certain to arrive on time especially if they themselves are parents? Yes, it is lovely to walk or bike anywhere without impediments. This is often why public rides and walks are popular. But we need to consider the long, long hours of closure here and factor in other needs in the community as listed above. When we see the sidewalks empty and just a few people using the avenue, it seems like poor planning and not great use of our neighborhood resources.
   These people - the less abled, the seniors, the low 70's residents, the teachers working with our children - are if you will, my agenda.

Offline abcdefghijk

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #176 on: September 09, 2021, 02:07:42 PM »
My agenda, if I have to have one, is this. Look at Diversity Plaza? Is it not one of the worst public spaces made with public monies in recent memory? As someone who travels the city and especially the boroughs, it seems like a travesty that Diversity Plaza looks and functions as it does. The planning was poor, and it was commandeered by a smallish group that tailored it to their agenda.
I see something similar here. A vocal group who loves Open Streets is commandeering the planning. That is why I am in favor of data. Cars are not my issue and if there was one major thing that seems forgotten, it's the less abled and senior communities in JH who need more access to 34th Ave as well as the multi family residences that are in the lower numbers who absolutely use their cars for grandma and the infants to travel. Also it has been mentioned that 34th Ave has many schools, not really businesses. Many of the teachers who need to be at school before 8:00 are driving. Where are they parking? What provisions have the schools made for their employees who drive to be certain to arrive on time especially if they themselves are parents? Yes, it is lovely to walk or bike anywhere without impediments. This is often why public rides and walks are popular. But we need to consider the long, long hours of closure here and factor in other needs in the community as listed above. When we see the sidewalks empty and just a few people using the avenue, it seems like poor planning and not great use of our neighborhood resources.
   These people - the less abled, the seniors, the low 70's residents, the teachers working with our children - are if you will, my agenda.

So, basically, hiding behind all that virtuous rhetoric...is a pro car agenda.
As opposed to the pro-pedestrian agenda. Got it.

As for Diversity Plaza, I was here before it was built. Hard to imagine but that area was even WORSE before the plaza was constructed.

Instead of people clogged, it was car clogged.

Again...the issue really boils down to pedestrians overs cars. Or cars over pedestrians.

And folks are mostly on one side or another. No matter how much the amount of "worthy" reasoning.




« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 02:20:16 PM by abcdefghijk »

Offline Ohno

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #177 on: September 09, 2021, 02:32:59 PM »
NOTE: There are many ways to compromise. It is not necessarily yes or no but perhaps something else. Please keep that in mind when thinking and commenting. Compromise is not my way or the highway.

I have noticed that mostly what goes on in forums online... is that when folks hear facts that don't suit them, they shoot the messenger. But since Ancient Greek times,  shooting the messenger NEVER changes the message.

Why is this person allowed to attack anyone who makes comments? This bombardment is constant.  Please ban her.  Make this stop, please.  You ban people who confront her but she remains. 

Offline itsit

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #178 on: September 09, 2021, 02:49:13 PM »
 Question- so cars = school busses, access a ride, construction vehicles, MTA cross town busses, ambulances, fire crews, Amazon, Fedex and USPS deliveries, misfit fruit deliveries, e-bikes,  medical transport, Ubers, etc. all of which I would say are not personal cars. Do I have this right? So yes, pro-these vehicles listed above with responsible use in our community. Or should all motorized vehicles be left out of 11372 for now?
 In the half hour between 7:30 and 8:00 watch the many school busses trying to get out of the neighborhood before the closure. It's kind of crazy scary to see and seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Offline JHHD

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Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2021, 08:02:37 PM »
All of those users (except the ??cross town buses??) can and do currently utilize 34th Ave for access and specific needs at any time of the day. There is still parking all day long on 34th Ave except for a block or two for play spaces.
Your arguments sound like they are based on the premise that the blocks on 34th Ave are entirely off limit to vehicles, which is clearly not the case.

Jackson Heights Life

Re: Petition started for "compromise" on 34th Ave Open Streets
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2021, 08:02:37 PM »